This is going to be SOME week of discussion. You guys are putting my feet to the fire with your excellent input. I will be logging in DAILY at least until Wednesday or Thursday to make some deposits.
Here is my first. I put another one up today as well, but check in daily. This discussion is HOT and extremely relevant.
BTW, this is NOT my last posting on this subject of the relationship between faith and good deeds.
Go to it!
Robert said...
In the lecture it was stated, “Doing the right thing has value even independent of the intent. If you feed a poor child even though you don’t have the warm fuzzy feelings, you are still doing a good thing. Deeds have dignity of their own.”
This sounds good on paper (so to speak), but how realistic is it to believe that someone who is not motivated by the love of G-d would even want to do a “good deed” such as feeding a hungry child. Does Isaiah 64:5 (“We have become like an unclean thing and all our virtues like a filthy rag”) have anything to do with this initial question? If doing a good deed doesn’t gain favor in G-d’s eyes then why do it since performing it with the wrong heart it is like a filthy rag? I see Isaiah 64:5, as Israel defiled with sin that even their pretensions to righteousness are vitiated by a basically self-seeking motive, rather than by supreme love of God (which alone can be the basis of true morality; compare to Deut 6:5) Does my question make sense?
Robert, your question makes sense, but there are non sequiturs in it, and it enshrines a very common false premise/ First of all, it would be nice to imagine that only people motivated by the love of God “would even want to do a “good deed” such as feeding a hungry child.” Do you really believe that only religious people care about humanity and human suffering? Let’s put it the other way: do you actually think that all who really believe in God involve themselves in relieving the suffering of others? I wish it were so, but there are plenty of believers who spend their time with the halleujahs and Davidic Dancing, but whose involvement in relieving the suffering of others is minimal at best. Similarly there are people who are not sure there is a God, who don’t give him a second thought, who know that right is right and that it is wrong to let people suffer and do nothing about it. Such people do great things.
Secondly, the “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” idea does NOT mean that righteous deeds are worthless unless situated in the right kind of faith. In the context, the Prophet is speaking of how Judah l is in a time of judgment—the Temple has been destroyed—and in this context, it is apparent to him that for some reason, Hashem is unimpressed with their good deeds—“all our righteousness is as filthy rags.” This does not means that good deeds are worthless, anymore than it means that evil deeds are immaterial. After all, it is Judah’s wicked deeds which have brought this upon them. No, tending the orphan, the fatherless and the widow is holy, right and good—whoever does it.
Let’s look at it this way: Does a Christian doing the wrong thing outweigh an atheist doing the right thing? You answer. If your answer is like mine, “Of course not,” then we must acknowledge that there is something in the deed itself that has relative weight. Come to think of it, Paul uses precisely this argument in Romans 2: 14 When Gentiles (and here he talking about pagans!) who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. . . . 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.”
Paul is clearly teaching here that pagans may do the right thing because of their consciences and because of the Law of God written on their hearts by the Creator God. Such deeds are GOOD deeds and trump the lives of those who have God’s law but don’t obey it.
Does this mean that people are saved by such deeds? No one is saying that. What I AM saying is that God prefers a person who does the right thing to a person who prides himself on the right kind of faith and does not do the right thing.
Also, Derek gave some excellent input to which you said:
. . . Maybe you missed my point. I was just expressing the importance of our motives behind our deeds, after all doesnt Hashem check our motives for all that we do?
Maybe the better question is - "How does our motive line up to the notion of doing the right thing independent of intent?"
After all Prov. 16:2 seems to emphasize Hashem checking our motive. A person may think nothing is wrong with what he does; outwardly it may seem innocent. But God knows his heart, whether the motives behind his actions are pure or not. The LORD judges people on the basis of why they act (Prov. 17:3; 21:2) because He sees human hearts ( Matt. 6:4, 8, 18)
Yes, Robert, God does judge motives. But to assume that only religious motives please him is a big jump. God does not dismiss the good deeds of people who really care about righteousness and mercy. He would on the other hand dismiss the deeds of someone who is doing what they do for deceitful reasons, such as someone treating someone well so as to only take advantage of them in the end.
Judaism cares about motives too—but again, I’d rather have a kind and caring atheist next door than an indifferent and self-involved Baptist. And God would see my point.
9 comments:
Well this question opens up a whole "can of worms"!
In the end why do we feel so uncomfortale with the idea that a bad person can do a good act,a good person does bad actions and further we can intertwine these if we input the motives of each group.
Isn't it because we think that to do good is the exclusive property of bible believing christians?
It also rubs us up the wrong way because Yeshua states that "by their fruit ye shall know them"
So someone who has all the wrong motives can bring forth good fruit?
I have found it useful to break it all down and also realise that there maybe things that we can never know in this life ,that are above us.
1.If a Buddist/moslem/christian/jew all do the same act out of the same "good "motive is there anymore value attributed to any?
2.We could then try to explain what makes a "good "act "good"..
I would say it's something that demonstrates compassion for the other.
3.Further ,we could try to determine why someone would want to act compassionately..for what reason would he/she not fullfil egotistical drives solely?
4.We might be tempted to say that the motive of acting compassionately is either because of our trying to live out a religiously inspired life ,or somehow ,intuitively, G-d acting through us ...without our knowing...which would be highly insulting for the Atheist!!
In the end so many contradictions remain..."There's more rejoicing over a saved sinner than all the righteous.." "You are worth more than sparrows.." and millions (including "good" christians/Jews die in the Holocaust...)
In conclusion isn't the answer more basic:
An Act, pure and simple, can be something that bestows compassion on someone else,or not.Better to do it that not to!
A motive can be pure compassion(feelings), or can be for a higher purpose(HaShem)...better to aim high!
Admittedly, this is inconsistent with some paradigms. But is it really inconsistent with Scripture? First, the issue needs to be framed. It seems that we are not having any problem with anyone, believer or not, behaving badly. Nor do we appear to be having a problem with a believer behaving well. The issue we have is not even whether a nonbeliever can perform a good act. It appears that the issue here is what merit is there to a nonbeliever for performing a good act.
Taking up the impact for this side of life. The Scriptures do say that we will reap what we sow. If a nonbeliever sows good deeds, he should reap the same here. But what about eternal consequences?
From the traditional Christian perspective, whether one gets into Heaven is determined solely by belief. Over simplistically, "Did you accept Jesus as your L-rd and Savior?" If yes, then you get in. Otherwise not.
Turning to the Jewish perspective, there are four questions that are considered:
(1) Did you conduct your business affairs honestly?
(2) Did you regularly set aside time for Torah study?
(3) Did you work at having children?
(4) Did you look forward to the world's redemption?
Interestingly, this view is a mix of belief and action. These questions imply a belief in G-d is a prerequisite as one is not very likely to study Torah or to look forward to the world's redemption absent belief in G-d.
So it would seem that under these views that the good deeds of a nonbeliever will not yield any useful benefit to the nonbeliever in the world to come.
Rabbi Stuart in response to Robert’s question/comment:
“What I AM saying is that God prefers a person who does the right thing to a person who prides himself on the right kind of faith and does not do the right thing.”
“Judaism cares about motives too—but again, I’d rather have a kind and caring atheist next door than an indifferent and self-involved Baptist. And God would see my point.”
R. Stuart I like where you are going with this. As believers, one of our biggest traps is the trap of becoming a Pharisee – “a person who prides himself on the right kind of faith and does not do the right thing” - where we use our religion as a free pass to tell others what they should be doing, while not doing those things ourselves. If we ever feel that we have arrived, I am sure that that is when we start looking down on others, and our motives become corrupt.
Is humility the issue to bring up here? This goes with checking our motives. Whom are we glorifying in the things that we do? Honesty is the best policy (with ourselves), as we should be able to honestly check ourselves (with the help of God’s Spirit), so that we can always maintain the truth in our hearts - the truth being that as believers, every good thing that we do is from God, even the things we don’t consciously think of.
As for the issue of the non-believer doing good, I have not yet fully organized my thoughts, but this should be a very interesting discussion. I look forward to reading what everyone has to say.
There is so much problematic here with respect to mitzvot, good deeds, kavannah, etc not in the sense of a problem in G-d's reality, but in the world of evangelical Christianity and its interpretation of all this. Christian theology seems to divide this into the dichotomy of faith and works which Heschel states was never a problem in Judaism. It seems that religious behaviorism is the evangelical Christian interpretation of Judaism and that any act of doing presupposes getting to G-d through a works righteousness and that we have to have in faith in Yeshua because that is grace. Also the impression I get in the evangelical Christian model, that unless you have faith in Yeshua, your good works although are better than bad works, avail for nothing. Yet we have Yeshua giving the example of the two sons who are asked by their father to go and work in the vineyard. One is quick to say that he'll do it but does not and the other says no to it but later repents of this attitude and does his father's bidding. Which did the will of his father, Yeshua asks? The evangelical Christian model seems at definite odds in some ways or in many ways to the Messianic jewish Spiritiuality that Messsianic Judaism is trying to define as distinct to what evangelical Chrisitianity upholds yet subsuming or better still having Yeshua and G-d's covental faithfulness to Israel as the starting points and mitzvot as obligatory on all Jews. The scriptures also seem to indicate that obeying commandments is also required of the Gentile believers as well. Louis Goldberg wrote a booklet entilted " Are There Two Ways of Atonement". My question would be are there two separte requirements for the kingdom, one set for Jews and the other set for Gentiles or is G-d still looking for a people after His Name who will do his bidding, both Jew and Gentile? Also I agree with R. Stuart's bringing in Rav Shaul's comments about Gentile (pagans) who do the right thing are a law unto themselves. Ironically, we find many to profess faith in Yeshua who actions are worse that non believers who morally behave the correct way and do the right thing in deed.
Now, with respect to Paul's last statement, 'so it would seem that under these views that the good deed of a nonbeliever will not yield any useful benefit to the nonbeliever in the world to come" and comparing this to the two triangles of Jewish community and Christian community how do we resolve this paradox? I mean in Chrisitanity, first you have to state your belief first, then show your behavior before you can belong cf which belonging first, then behavior and subsequently beliefs? It seems that for the nonbeliever in Christianity, the door is immediately closed without a profession of faith whereas in Judaism, belonging is what sets the stage for learning behavior (Torah) which then leads to belief(s). ow do we resolve this approach or how do we approach this paradigm?
Robert
R. Stuart said,
“Let’s look at it this way: Does a Christian doing the wrong thing outweigh an atheist doing the right thing? You answer. If your answer is like mine, “Of course not,” then we must acknowledge that there is something in the deed itself that has relative weight.”
Doesn’t this boil down to what Heschel said in regard to what kind of meaning we look for (pg. 182)? Since the kind of meaning we look for depends on the kind of system we choose is this a matter of a "synoptix approach?"
Perhaps this is where I am having a disconnect. I am not aware of any Scripture that allows us to pass judgment on another human being's salvation. G-d has retained that jurisdiction for Himself. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And perhaps this is why we cannot understand this to a certainty. It is G-d's subjective decision.
To me, that is quite liberating because all I have to do is to love G-d with all of my heart, all of my being, and all of my strength and to love my neighbor as myself. Who is my neighbor? Everyone. I don't have to pass judgment on anyone or try to figure out who is heaven-ward bound. But I will do my level best to show them the way.
Turning to the benefit of a good deed done by an unbeliever, can someone explain why this question is so important? I will concede it is an interesting intellectual exercise, but what is the practical application?
We are all born and we all die. We will all stand before the Creator and He will judge us according to His will. Two Scriptures come to mind.
Matthew 7:21-29:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
Per Yeshua, entering heaven is for those who do his Father's will. So much for the good deeds of believers - called evildoers by Messiah.
The other is Scripture:
Mark 12:28-34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
I really wish the guy had the chutzpah to ask, "If I am not far, what do I lack?" Yehsua's answer would have tied the matter up neatly. But he didn't.
So what can we do? Love G-d and love our neighbor. And trust in the mercy of G-d and the sacrifice of his Son, Yehsua our Messiah.
I am in agreement with Paul's posting that there are some things that are not for us to judge. We have been given to primary instructions - Firstly, to live out Torah as a redeemed community, and Secondly, spread the message of the Jewish Messiah.
This creates so much of the controversy because we are specifically instructed to spread a Jewish message. In spreading a Jewish message, it is obvious how there will be confusion and mishegoss over Jewish observance as a result.
For whatever its worth...I just want to say I have been a Heschel fan for many years. :)
Post a Comment