Robert references Roger who asks his question about the church– “if this is such a great way of life, why doesn’t G-d call all the nations to this life? Isn’t this a case of dividing rightfully those laws which are universal as opposed to specific Jewish laws?
God has the right to give His laws to whosoever He will, and he has given the Torah as the inheritance of the descendants of Jacob. As to why God does not call all the nations to embrace the Torah way of life, that is really God’s concern. I suggest you read Romans 9, which deals with this question. But Robert, you are right that one must divide rightly between those laws which have universal applicability and those which are especially the province of Jews.
Dr Bruce Stokes has thought hard and long on such issues. He holds that Gentiles should “keep Torah” but always in a different manner than Jews, for the sake of maintaining and respecting the distinction between Jews and Gentiles.
Robert says further . . . regarding the Gentiles in our midst, I see this as a matter of gentiles having a tremendous responsibility in making Israel jealous (Romans 11) and in this way having a priestly call to support the Jewish people to fulfill their destiny. As far as Gentiles in the MJ movement, when a Gentile is in a Messianic Congregation, they live the life of the culture; celebrating the feasts and worshipping with the Jews. They have been grafted in and are now part of the New Covenant faith and are children of Abraham. Only those practices that entail explicitly professing being a Jew are not recommended to gentiles. I find this not so problematic when Gentiles find their identity in Yeshua and get passed the concern that they are second class citizens. Is there a higher place than being in Messiah? I think not!
I too have Gentiles in my congregation, great people. But I have a high hurdle for them to jump over—they must be people truly involved with the wider Jewish community, truly relating to Jewish people outside of the MJ movement. I believe that if the only Jews such Gentiles know are those in our congregations, they are not really relating to the Jewish community at all, and are by no means manifesting a call to the Jewish people—simply an attraction to Jewish stuff, for whatever reason.
One of the things that troubles me is that so many of our congregations have a large Gentile majority—and Jewish people use this fact to discredit us. How does this demographic reality manifest that Yeshua is the Messiah of the Jewish people who then remain rooted in Jewish life after coming to believe in Him? I think it makes our movement appear strange to the wider Jewish world, like a group of Japanese Chasidim might look. Something strange, but neither attractive to nor compelling for Jewish people. I believe our congregations usually appear strange to Jews, and, for some eyes, deceitful—we claim to be a Jewish movement for Yeshua, yet when they peek in our doors what do they see? You tell me!
It is inappropriate to use the grafting in metaphor for what goes on in our congregations. For Paul, Gentiles are grafted into the Olive Tree without Gentiles either becoming Jews or taking on Jewish life! Remember, he fought for the fact that Gentiles become fully children of Abraham through faith in Yeshua, but that they do NOT become Jews—otherwise he would have insisted they be circumcisedm as is the initiation rite of becoming Jews. Gentiles in Messiah are fully members of the people of God, and not second class citizens. But they are not therefore Jews, nor need they be. And there is a lot of confusion in our ranks over these matters. You are right that Gentiles should be kept from certain behaviors reserved for Jews, but you are smart enough and honest enough to admit that many Gentiles seek to live as uncircumcised Jews, and that our congregations are dominated by non Jewish faces and not a few people with strange and idiosyncratic views of what it means to follow Torah.
Frankly, I think our movement is, in many corners, a confused mess. This is not to critique the people involved, but it IS to critique our lack of foresight and slapdash approach to community formation.
And again, I have some great Gentiles who have attached themselves to my congregation—and not intermarried ones. I love them. I serve them. But I am worried. And it would be irresponsible for us to NOT worry. And I hold myself responsible to take responsible action—when I decide what that action must be. Meanwhile, the non-Jews in my congregation know how I feel about these things—and they realize there is a problem here.
I will not simply let the movement change, and let my congregation change simply because it either makes more people happy, makes less waves, or is the easier thing to do.
As for making Jews jealous, Mark Nanos suggests that what makes Jews jealous is not Gentiles, but Paul’s ministry to Gentiles. The Jewish community knew that in the latter, the gentiles would turn toward Israel’s God. Now here is Paul getting done what Israel thought was their own prerogative—and THAT makes them jealous.
At any rate, even if one accepts the more prevalent concept of Gentiles making Jews jealous by their coming to faith in Israel’s Messiah and through life in Him, is that not the role of the Church and not of the Messianic Jewish Movement? Or should we just call this the Messianic Movement and accept the fact that we are accomplishing very little if anything in fulfilling the responsibilities of the Remnant of Israel?
What will really make Jews jealous is large numbers of Messianic Jews getting more our of Torah living than the rest of the Jewish world does, because of Messiah Yeshua and the power of the Holy Spirit. Gentiles blowing shofars and doing Davidic Dancing does nothing to kindle jealousy in Aunt Minnie. And I think even a Gentile halakhically pure Messianic Judaism would still be confusing to Jews—it comes across as a boundary violation.
How does the increasing predominance of Gentiles in our midst impair the Messianic Jewish Movement’s faithfulness in being the Remnant of Israel?
What would be lost if the Messianic Jewish Movement became increasingly Gentile and Jews became an ever shrinking minority?
Why is it that Koreans can have Korean Churches, and Armenians, Armenian Churches, and Hong Kong born Chinese their own churches, separate from American Born Chinese or Mainland Born Chinese (all who have their own churches in America), but the Messianic Jewish Movement has to feel guilty and make apologies or appear racist unless we give equal status to Jews and Gentiles in every way?
What should be the criteria governing determining what Gentiles are appropriate for our congregations? And if we make those criteria simply believing in Yeshua and loving Jewish stuff, is it not clear that we will become permanently a movement with an increasingly Gentile majority?
These are BIG questions, and my major concern is my view that the MJ movement is in danger of becoming irrelevant to the responsibilities of the Messianic Jewish Remnant being who it should be and doing what it should do in these times of eschatological transition.
More later on this as well.
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10 comments:
I thought your answer R.Stuart really summed up the problems in a nutshell!
I admire your honesty in admiting that the Messianic Moement is in a "confused mess".Tough words...but necessary!
You are also so right when you state that unless we see things as they really are ,things will only get more and more disorientated.
The good news is...that our calling IS to the our people,and despite our fumblings,etc we can take heart that Yesuha will be revealed to his people in time...but only if we honour G-D,communicate with HIM, and offer ourselves to be guided by the Ruach HaKodesh..
I read in the Moaz book ,how the author visited a Messianic Synagogue in Nambia and found it to his horror to be 90% Gentile,yet everyone was going through the motions of singing in Hebrew(none spoke Hebrew!) and all were taken up with ,tallits,Davidic dancing,and even Peyos!!..It's nonsense!
Why ever did anyone feel that to follow Yeshua one had to take on another cultures customs!!
Part of the reasons,I believe,for the situation as it is,revolves around the total lack of boundaries that were set in place with the birth of the movement.
Secondly,the Messianic Synagogue ,in my view,should never have become a competitor to the church as it is seen by some:(No life at the local Baptist church so of we go to the Messianic meetings!!!)
The local church(whatever the denomination or vitality) should always remain the centre of the christian life the "Hub".Our branch is but a small spoke joined to the hub but trying to also link to the wider Jewish community,and possibly offer a way to stay connected to the Jewish way of life.It seems bizarre that it has been interpreted the other way around(a place for non-Jews to try on Jewish practices and then "switch"?)
I don't think just "tweeking" a little here and there will be enough..even the steps in the "post-missionary messianic Judaism" book aren't drastic enough.
It's going to need a radical re-think and a lot of honesty to work the future out..otherwise the movement will become irrelevant.
I'm a firm supporter of Dr Brian Stoke's work, and share the same vision:
Torah observant Jewish communities ,made up of Jews who are fully versed in Jewish liturgy,Oral Torah and lifestyle,but who are fully involved in other Jewish secular circles(Schools,etc)and who also remain connected in a real way to their local church.
We should have enough respect for the traditional rabbis and their congregations to be honest on this issue..Off with the disguise..Who are we?
I feel that the issues of the role and boundaries of the Gentile in the Messianic Jewish movement is a critical issue that is at the fore. The longer it goes without serious discussion and resolution the more momentum this problem will have. And it is gaining momentum as we speak, so ignoring it won't do either.
While I suspect that there are some concerned, forward thinking folks who are taking this issue up, I am unaware of it. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Turning to John's comment concerning the "hub." If I understand your summary of Stokes, the hub is the Jewish community with MJ remaining involved with the local church. However, again if I understand, your view is that the local church is the hub and the Jewish community is whom we remain involved with. So which is the hub? And why? Not to put you on the spot, but the distinction in my mind is crucial. I want to be sure I understand.
As for me, I agree with what I understand your summary of Stokes to be. I base this on the continuing role of Israel as a kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation. While the Church is ordained by G-d and continues to have a vital role in the redemption of the world, it is not Israel. If we become absorbed by it, our identity is lost and we can turn the clock back another 1,500 years. To maintain our identity, our hub must be the Jewish community despite its present scorn for us. And, candidly, their scorn is not entirely misplaced.
Rabbi Stuart:
My below comment is in regard to your statement, "One of the things that troubles me is that so many of our congregations have a large Gentile majority—and Jewish people use this fact to discredit us. How does this demographic reality manifest that Yeshua is the Messiah of the Jewish people who then remain rooted in Jewish life after coming to believe in Him? I think it makes our movement appear strange to the wider Jewish world."
Although many of us might agree to a degree with your observation, yet the big question is what do we do about it now? As you rightly observed, there are now hundreds of commited non-Jews in our midst who are often more commited then some of our Jewish congregants. We cannot just kick them out or push them away. Although the problem exists, I have not heard from anywhere in teh MJ Movement a valid and meaningful responce. You bring up the idea of cultural churches, but is that even fair? Afterall, we claim that MJ is more than just a cultural flavor of Christianity. Although I agree to a degree that the "grafted" language is a little limited in our context, but the truth also exists that non-Jews have always been involved in the Jewish community to one degree or another. Non-Jews came out with us from Egypt, and from that point on, non-Jews have quietly been a part in some way involved in the Jewish community. What are your thoughts on this?
Here is what I notice. We keep brining up this necessity to integrate with the Jewish community. I agree with that (although I myself have had some experiences in the past with the wider Jewish community that were not so bueno), but that cannot be our only focus, as we are a Jewish community ourselves, even with the gentile believers in our midst.
What do I mean by this? Would anyone else agree that a major concern in congregations is the lack of community? People go to a home group once a week, the kids go to youth group Sunday nights, and everyone goes to Shabbat service, but that does not describe a community. A community is where people live near each other, physically. A community is where people eat meals together on a regular basis, where homes are opened, where lives are shared, where we learn in a living way why people do what they do.
What we have now are people that have their closely guarded private walk with the Lord combined with the more distant relationship with the Congregation they belong too (and of course many people throw on their façade in the Congregational setting)– individual walk + large corporate gatherings. What I feel is missing is the small group dynamic, where real community can grow, where lives can be intermingled.
I say all this in response to what everyone has been discussing about Gentile believers in our midst. As I think about it, in a large group setting, very few people have the right to go up to a Gentile in the Congregation and question their reasons for attending – that’s offensive. But, if there was more community amongst ourselves, a level of intimacy can be developed, where the hard questions can be asked, and dealt with – real growth, real discipleship. This is the place where change can happen.
I want to integrate with my close family, not only with the wider Jewish community.
I have read everyone's comments and they really sum up the situation as it is. As to solutions, wow! Will we ever arrive at something concrete or will there be a lot of latitude as there is now and acceptance because we are all brothers and sisters in Messiah and don't want to step on toes.
I am unfamiliar with Bruce Stokes and his writings and would like to know or read what he has said.
I have a certain amount of confusion on this whole area because there has never been anything set down or defined and the Messianic Movement originally has been influenced by the evangelical Christian model and over the years it seems is seeking and getting to a place of more definition as to what it should embody or look like. I agree that with the extremely high percentage of Gentiles in Messianic congregations it gives a wrong or skewed impressions to non believing Jews looking in. However, I think we should also look at the fact that this is the situation outside the Land. In Israel, I don't believe that this skew is the same especially where the tendency is growing towards Hebrew speaking only congregations with the elimination of Russian and English translation. Granted many of the congregations follow in the charismatic Evangelical Christian mode but there are very liturgical, more Torah based or observant congregations but this whole issue of "getting too rabbinic" raises questions among many Messianic leaders. I also believe that the reason for alot of the Gentiles in the Messianic Jewish congregations is that they find something lacking in the traditional multi-denominational churches that they find in the Messianic congregations. Perhaps, what they are discovering is what was in evidence in the early Body of Believers before the Patristics, and Constantine etc drove out what was Jewish in the Body. I hope this is not a misperception of mine but that is my understanding in a brief sense. As Joshua stated, there have always been non-Jews involved in the Jewish commuunity to one degree or another. The Bible always mentions the G-d fearers among the Jews. Somehow, something will eventually get distilled out of all of this. I do agree with R. Stuart in his comments and observations as well as the calling of Messianic Jews to live an observant life in Torah and in the full sense of Jewish tradtions and Jewish life with Yeshua as the cornerstone and Yeshua being bigger than anyone can ever imagine in all of this. Somehow, also Gentiles can be attached to all of this because there sonehow is a provision in this whole Messianic Jewish movement that gives a breadth and depth of understanding of the roots of the Christian faith and of how to live it out that is painfully missing in the traditional church. I don't mean this to sound offensive or too strong but for me this seems to be the harsh reality. Yet isn't it interesting that aside from those Gentiles who are in Messianic congregatations and those who are supportive of Israel, the majority of the Chrisitan churches are oblivious or unconcerned about Jewish people coming to faith because they are too steeped into the island of Gentile Christianity with or without a supersessionistic flavor. These last days sure are interesting and boy are they ever going to get more interesting as the distillation process keeps on going as well as the restoration of all things. Not only is our intent important but also the desire to do the right thing, the righteous requiremnts of what G-d desires.
Robert -
I will comment on one issue at this time since there is so much food for thought. In regard to Mark Nanos on Romans 11 - If Shaul said that, "My life of evangelism to the Gentiles is a proof to Jews of the Messiahship of Yeshua because I am showing the fulfillment of Gentiles turning to the God of Israel, and this will make them jealous" Nanos would be correct.
But I do not think this is the emphasis for Nanos. Better said is that he is making Jews jealous as an example to the Gentiles to follow. Maybe he is saying,"I am speaking to you Gentiles" meaning that Shaul’s ministry of signs and wonders and manifestations of the Presence, is something they are also to do. They magnify the reality that God is in their midst and this makes Jews jealous. My personal stance on all of this is to teach the gentiles in our midst to be effective in their witness in their outreach to the Jewish community as opposed to setting a discriminatory quota which is NOT the heart of G-d in my opinion. Here is a better proposition – to continue to have a movement composed of Jews and Gentiles with Gentiles who have a primary calling to the Jews in orientation. Obviously not all gentiles will have this specific calling and those who do not will eventually be weeded out as is my experience. At the same time, the MJ congregations should have all practices open to the gentiles with exception to those things which are explicitly for Jewish calling. Finally as Soulen and Wyschogrod exhort, Jews should be and are encouraged to maintain their Jewish identity and calling based on Torah as willed by God.
Concerning the role and participation of Gentiles in the Messianic Movement, here is the model I use. I share only to be a point of departure for further discussion. I am wrestling with how to do this "properly," whatever that will come to mean. Before setting forth my model, I feel it would be beneficial to explain the basis for it.
Israel remains Israel. It is called to covenant faithfulness to both written and oral Torah, although I do welcome all levels of observance. As Heschel so eloquently puts it, it is our response to G-d. And the same is true for Gentiles. Their response to G-d, like Israel, is to the NC, but, unlike Israel, goes back to the Noahide Covenant instead of the Covenant received at Sinai. Thus we have the same redemption but different roles in this world. With that, Gentiles do not have a fixed role on the individual’s level. Permit me to explain. Turning to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, it addresses the question of whether the Gentiles in their midst must take on the laws and customs of Moses (read “written and oral Torah”) to obtain salvation. The answer was a resounding NO. Instead the decision, with regard to observance, was to inform the Gentiles that they were to, in essence, adhere to the Noahide Covenant. On that basis one could assert that the Gentiles are restricted to observing the Noahide Covenant but that, in my mind, is too strict an interpretation. In the sociological and historical contexts, we have to remember that Judaism at that time allowed for conversion and that the Church was still an integral part of the Jewish community and not a separate and distinct entity. This strongly suggests that Gentiles were permitted to join with the local Jewish community as long as, at a minimum, they adhered to the Noahide Covenant. Further, they must have been permitted to press in to living as a Jew. If not, how would anyone know if that person was a suitable candidate for conversion? There was also a class of folks called “G-d Fearers” who pressed into living as a Jew so much so that the only thing that kept them from conversion was their declining to undergo brit milah, circumcision. But that only answers the question for that time period. Judaism’s traditions have changed over time, including their stance on Gentiles. The Sages sit in Moses seat so their rulings apply today? Baruch Hashem for the Rabbinic Council. May G-d grant them abundant wisdom as they grapple with these issues and guide us. There is no easy answer here. So I have taken the approach that Gentiles are most certainly welcome to engage in Jewish observance as long as they understand that each act is designed to draw our attention to G-d, that this does not make them Jewish, they do it with respect, and they refrain from doing it until taught.
To me the clearly wrong answer is to forbid Gentiles from entering into Jewish expressions of faith. However, we also have to be clear that in so doing, they do not become Jewish. However, there is a balance to be struck and I am not sure where it lies. The tension is between Gentiles belonging and being accepted while contemporaneously maintaining the identity of Israel among a group that is about 90% Gentile. What gives me comfort here is the words of the prophet Zechariah: “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’’” Zech. 8:23. With that, the issue before us is that we are called to maintain our identity as Jews so that folks will know who to grab while still welcoming our Gentiles brethren as brethren. And it is a tough issue. Again, any guidance is appreciated.
Would someone enumerate what things are reserved to Jews only? Thanks.
Corneliusm:
To answer your questions, Dr. Bruce Stokes is a Behavioral Anthropologist who teaches in Southern California, and is a pastor. He has been involved with the Messianic Movement for some time and has put alot of thought into what the rammifications are of Messianic Judaism for Christianity.
Paul:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I pretty much agree with you.
I do have one primary observation from reading different people's postings that I kind of take issue with. Everyone is quick to point to Torah as both written and oral. Although I agree with this statement, I think we must also keep in mind that te oral tradition as it stands must also be grappled with. I personally feel after many years of looking at halachah, etc. that it is not possible to whole heartedly accept all of rabbinic oral tradition and be Messianic. Besides, messianic Judaism is older than Rabbinic Judaism, and as such, enables us to grapple with some things. I feel that, as the popular phrase goes among other forms of progressive Judaisms, "that the oral torah should get a vote and not a veto." The Biblical text should be the ultimate authority. For there are instances that the rabbis themselves claimed greater weight than the written Torah and that they had the collective authority to change somethng in the written Torah. To this I disagree. So I just wanted to express some caution that although we must allow oral tradition to guide our Messianic Jewish community, we must also do this with a mature wrestling with it as well.
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