What is and is not appropriate for Gentiles? I understand and agree in principle. But I have no framework for analysis here. Or, if I do, I am unaware of it. In an orthodox synagogue the roles seem clearly defined. Gentiles were a kipa and may pray from a siddur. They are not counted as part of a minyan. They do not lay tefillin or don a tallit. They do not get called to the Torah or lead prayer. They can drive to shul without raising an eyebrow. What is more, as long as they adhere to the Noahide covenant, they are considered to merit a life in the olam haba. So there is no distinction in salvation there either. Any input is greatly appreciated.
Paul, I don’t think the list is random, and should be fairly easy to discern. What is inppropriate for Gentiles is any action which embodies the unique calling of the Jewish people or which lays claim to that calling.
For this reason, Judaism frowns upon Gentiles observing shabbat. Yes, I know that is politically incorrect. But to Jews, it feels like a boundary violation. Our shabbat liturgy even speaks of shabbat in these terms: “You did not give it, HASHEM, our God, to the nations of the lands, nor did You make it the ineritance, our King of the worshipers of graven idols. And in its contenment the uncircumcised shall not abide—for to Isrel, our people, have you given it I love, to the seed of Jacob, whom you have chosen. Your people that sanctifies the Sventh—they will all be satisfied and dlighted with your goodness . . . ‘Most coveted of days,’ you called it, in rememberance of the act of creation.”
Israel takes pride in the shabbat as a covenant sign between her and Israel (Exodus 31), and is jealous over the sign, the same way your wife would be jealous if another woman in your synagogue began wearing a wedding ring which is a duplicate of the one you share with your wife, just because the other woman likes the way it looks.
So, covenant signs, privileges, marks of Israel’s unique relationship with God, Ritual acts that call attention to these, these are the areas to be avoided. For this reason, I do not have Gentiles come up to read the Torah or Haftarah, only the B’rith Chadasha. Gentile men should not wear a tallit. Now, there is a distinction between public acts and private acts in the degree of offense or impropriety. Should you forbid Gentiles to eat kosher? Hardly! But, it seems to me, the offense and impropriety is especially grave in the area of public ritual acts which lay claim to Israel’s unique standing, acts like coming up to the Torah and wearing the tallit, saying blessings such as “who chose us from among the nations and gave us his Torah.” These are the boundary areas where offense and impropriety is greatest.
This puts Gentiles serving as MJ rabbis in an especially difficult place. In my view, at the very least, when and where such persons utter such prayers in public, or commit to such ritual acts, they should be people formally seeking conversion. The higher road, although not possible for most, is to forego the rabbinical title certainly and even the position until such conversion takes place.
These are controversial issues, I know, and are not meant to express disrespect for Gentiles as a class, or for any individuals or classes of individuals. But it seems to me, that if we are going to lay claim to Jewish space, we must play by Judaism’s rules.
What offends me most is when I encounter Gentile people who have a sense of entitlement about such matters, feeling that their own interpretation of Scripture or that of some group to which they belong entitles them to reassign Jewish sancta to themselves, and/or to transmute the meanings long attributed to these sancta. Such acts seem to me a form of disrespect.
Now, of course, promulgating such guidelines in contexts where they have historically been ignored is a very risky business. Unless I miss my guess, there is tremendous confusion, emotionality and entitlement surrounding this issue in our circles. The heat surrounding the issue is, in my mind, due in large measure to the fact that traditions have been established, and behaviors allowed and or condoned before adequate theological and missiological thought had been invested on the broad scale of our movement and in the microcosms of congregations and individual lives. It is very difficult to introduce such boundaries where none had existed. At the very least we are speaking of years of teaching and discussion, and a policy of gradualism in those contexts where practices have been condoned which now seem inappropriate.
Cornelius touched on this issue stating:
“Also it seems there is the problem of what is right behavior by all the Gentiles within Messianic Jewish congregations and of how to deal with this especially in portraying a Messianic Jewish Spirituality to non-believing Jews who look in and see a Gentile predominance.”
Cornelius, you have touched on a huge issue—one that may spell the end of the MJ Movement as a force for Yeshua among the people of Israel. The word is out that our congregations are predominantly Gentile. There is no way that such congregations are a sign to the Jewish world that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah who enhances, validates, reinforces, empowers Jewish life. For most Jews such congregations are at best quaint, at worst cultic or just strange. There is no way of getting around this reality.
It would be like a black person stopping into a meeting of the NAACP to find a room full of white folks.
The strangeness is the more acute when all these Gentiles are wearing tallises, blowing shofars, doing “David Dancing” (a strange phenomenon if I ever saw one), etc.
But of course, we can just say, “To hell with what the Jews think!” which may be what some people feel.
Some will say “Well this is the way we make Jews jealous” in fulfillment of Romans 11. Hardly. Jews are not jealous of Gentiles who do Jewish things, and are especially not jealous of Gentiles who act strange with Jewish props.
Yesterday I had a conversation with a very articulate, brilliant and well educated (PhD) Messianic Jewish woman who has a Japanese husband. She and her children are all Israeli citizens (I am not sure of the husband could be under Israeli law), and are Hebrew speaking. She attends a church nearby, but with the family, attends a Conservative Synagogue where they are all members. Why does she not go to a MJ congregation, you ask? She told me yesterday: “Because I don’t want my children hanging out with a bunch of Filipinos.” Now this is NOT a statement of prejudice: Her husband, also a professional, is Asian, and all her children half Japanese/half Caucasian. The issue is one of identity formation. She wants her kids to grow up knowing and feeling they are Jews. And you can’t do this in a climate where the Jews are hard to locate!
I got a call this morning from a highly placed Messianic Jew who is agonizing over just this issue in the identity formation of his own children.
These are BIG issues, which it is not safe to discuss widely in our movement. But they are still issues.
I have more to say in terms of addressing these matters, but for now, less is more.
25 comments:
In light of R. Dauermann's comments, I have to say that I am concerned; I was concerned before but am even more so now considering the entitlement mentality he points towards. Candidly I realize it has been there, but I did not appreciate its implications as much as believe that I do now. It seems that we are headed towards a more difficult place, at best, than we faced when the Church split from Israel in that not only do we have a majority of Gentiles who do not really understand their Jewish roots, which is the way it was when the Church split, but now we are faced with a substantial group that feel entitled to claim that they have the right to "be Jewish." At least in the historical context, the Church ran from that. Taking this all together, are we moving to a place where the believing remnant is swallowed whole by this majority? It is possible but I suspect that, in light of history, that some forward thinking folks may be addressing that very issue. And I pray so. And I hope my concerns are unfounded.
Perhaps I am tired but I feel flummoxed over this. Too much change too fast and it shatters. Too little to late and I run the real risk of losing the very people I am trying to reach. I will pray for wisdom and use what G-d gives me to move in this direction trusting that all things work together for good to those who love G-d and are called according to His purpose.
Rabbi D:
Sometimes when I am discussing these things with people in my cong, they bring up Isa 66 and God electing some of the Goyim as priests in the millennium. So, Q#1, is there an eschatological call for Goyim to participate with Israel?
Q#2: Is conversion of mature Gentiles in the movement who love Israel and Torah something we should be utilizing more? If it is a solution for some (it'a the route I'm taking) should it be for the many?
Derek
Robert -
R. Stuart said, “This puts Gentiles serving as MJ rabbis in an especially difficult place” - I agree, but imagine how many congregations that would need to close down if we denied the many Gentile MJ rabbis who have served for years and given their hearts to the movement and who have brought in who knows how many Jews?
This leads me to another question. Dan Juster hits the nail on the head in his book Jewish Roots. He says, “ Much confusion comes because two questions are not distinguished: “Who is a Jew?” And, “ What does it mean to live as a Jew?” Many of you have read the book, so I will not regurgitate the info, but the key was that if we went according to traditional Jewish Halakah (thru the lineage of the mama’s) that would probably take out another chunk from our movement. Where would that leave us as a movement then?
Here we are still trying to define, “ what it means to live as a Jew,” and this has been stewing for quite a long time. I think about Stern’s initiative on this matter in his classic book Messianic Jewish Manifesto copyright 1988. Here he was basically reiterating much of what we are discussing today, and yet it seems to me that not much has changed. Has it? Stern addressed conversion, gentile participation in the MJ community and legislation of Jewish practices. Stern said his gut reaction to gentiles doing Jewish things would be peculiar, but not forbidden.
I can certainly sympathize with R. Stuart on all these issue we are addressing, and I personally think and ask and pray and teach etc…. about ways to bring solution to all of these “big issues,” which I think many are discussing within our movement but many are just “rolling along as usual” or not being reached to discuss these matters on a larger scale.
Here are my thoughts which envelope all of the questions I referred to above. Yes these are big issues, but within the last 20-30 years what has really changed? If anything, I see more sects of MJ since Stern’s Manifesto from Hashevenu to the new Dayenu and those are the legitimate MJ sects, there are many other misinformed “wanna-be” MJ movements that are puzzling and poison to MJ. For the poisonous sects, they will not last (Acts 5:35-39)but for us we should continue to work together.
Back to R. Stuart’s statement, “In my view, at the very least, when and where such persons utter such prayers in public, or commit to such ritual acts, they should be people formally seeking conversion.”
Regarding conversion, we are obviously speaking of MJ conversion (or at least I am assuming this) If so, are we not a bit gullible to think that we can launch a “credible” MJ conversion accepted and recognized by mainstream Judaism. We are a movement that would never disregard our NC faith in Yeshua, and in this stance what kind of Judaism (especially Orthodox) would actually count us as valid? Back to the bloodline on the mothers side – even if one proved to be Jewish according to Jewish authority, mainstream Judaism would never grant us the legitimacy of title of “rabbi” especially one that follows Yeshua.Are our hands tied on these matters?
The Big question – “ what are we trying to prove and to whom when it really will not change the way main stream Judaism looks at us?” Even within our MJ movement, we have lost those who have denied Yeshua all in the name of becoming traditional Jews. We can talk about gentiles in our midst all we want, and yet even if we cleaned out all the gentile rabbi’s and congregants within our movement – what would that do or prove? Would this please G-d or man? I would guesstimate that we would get a few raised eyebrows from Mainstream Judaism, but I certainly do not think it would cause some great Jewish revival in our midst.
The same way many are offended by gentiles doing Jewish things so is the wider Jewish community who scorns on us in a like manner as we call ourselves MJ’s. Isn’t there a bigger and better way that maybe we are missing? How true are the words of R. Stuart that we will come out of this class with more questions, and possibly unresolved.
Robert -
Paul,
You said, " Taking this all together, are we moving to a place where the believing remnant is swallowed whole by this majority? It is possible but I suspect that, in light of history, that some forward thinking folks may be addressing that very issue. And I pray so. And I hope my concerns are unfounded."
I meant to refer to your name under my posting which refers to Acts 5:35-39. I feel that our identity will ALWAYS be under attack, we just need to remember the words in Luke 9:62-'No one, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom." We need to keep reaching out to our Jewish brothers and sisters without being hindered.
Paul,Robert,Derek:we've all come together on this issue and realize that something is drastically wrong.It's so wrong it has become scary and is giving us all the jitters...and so it should!!
Th example of Rabbi Stuart(Filippino's dancing around in Tzitzits) brings tears of sorrow over the lack of respect one can have for those things that some cultures hold very dear.
The first thing we have to ask is how could the Holy spirit have lead us down this so evidently wrong dead-end?
Does the Holy spirit"permit" such mistakes?
Or is it again symptomes of man's so common reasoning"How can something that feels so good be so wrong"
We all know the facts:Less than 1% of Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua felt that was in any way due to Messianic Judaism and congregational contacts.
Messianic "Jewish" congregations almost 95% Gentile.(Who ARE we fooling!!!)
It would seem to me that it's mission very un-accomplished if we accept that by the "fruit you will know the tree"
But what was the mission anyway?
It wasn't to help people who couldn't fit in christian churches an opportunity to try something else.
It wasn't even to allow Gentiles to convert to Judaism so that they could start again in another tradition on an equal basis as those with Jewish mama's(Robert's brilliant phrase)
I believe the mission was to offer a "safe" place of worship for Jewish people in continuity with their synagogue traditions(Note:does note include golddust dropping from the roof,strange dancing,or multicoloured tallit displays).It was to provide "Jewish space" for those ostracized from the synagogue because of Yeshua,it was for Jews who couldn't go anymore to the synagogue ,not gentiles who couldn't attend the synagogue anymore...and it was supposed to dwell in the traditions of synagogue liturgy,not create it's own hybrid.
How should we go forward:
At the risk of getting kicked off this course,but purely out of love for my people ,and with really, really heartfelt sorrow for what we've done to things Traditional Jews treat as extremely sacred,I think the MJCA and the UMJC should have the courage to "pull the plug" on the movement before much too much damage is done.
Secondly,after this move ,there should be a period of about 5 years of intense prayer,fasting,dialogue with traditional Jewish streams as to how to restart in a healthier vein.
Thirdly,their should be a clearer statement of purpose that should limit participation in principle to those with "Jewish mama's or papa's(or grandparents).
We might feel very allergic to all of this inclusion/exclusion buisness..but come on,doesn't it all make sense?
Hope for the future? Very little if we continue on the same path..in fact I am convinced that the whole Messianic movement as it is now will unravel into chaos very soon.
But outreach to Jewish people and revealing Yeshua doesn't have to end with the Messianic movement,does it?
If we take drastic steps,steeped in humble prayer to be really guided by the holy spirit and common sense this time,we may bring forth abundant fruit.
I was struck by the Stern translation of the gospel story in Luke 7.1-10."Hearing about Yeshua,Jewish elders sought Yeshua out and pleased to have found him yeshua begged him and pleaded with him "He really deserves to have you do this for him,as he loves our people..he even built us our synagogue..come on do it for you elders.."
It struck me how even Jewish elders in the time of Yeshua were on the search for him...and so it will continue...but we have to have the Jewish community on our side, we shouldn't be THE competition...
(apologies if I offend any of you folks with all of this...but had to get it off my chest so to speak!!)
Robert -
Thank you.
While I am by no means sure about how to proceed from here, and understand the concerns from both perspectives, I am really curious about what Scriptur might have to say about this. Derek's reference to Isaiah 66 does not hold much sway in my view, no offense, because it clearly states that the L-rd will choose which Gentiles are to be selected. But I am sure there is more.
John, Rabbi D, and all:
I think we need to do more work on the place of Gentiles in the Jewish ekklesia. Paul was a Jew in the Gentile ekklesia. Nicholas from Acts 6 was a proselyte. Cornelius was a God-fearer.
I believe there are several bases for Gentiles in the Jewish ekklesia:
1. The eschatological reality of Gentiles grabbing on and even becoming cohanim.
2. Second Temple Judaism and the God-fearers. According to my reading, most God-fearers kept Shabbat. Second Temple Judaism provides a precedent for conversion and inclusion without conversion.
I think Judaism has enough room for different streams. I think by including Gentiles in a proper way, but respecting roles and differences, we can be an example to the Jewish world. We are a community living in light of the Age to Come.
Derek
Robert –
In response to John’s last post:
John you referred to R. Stuart’s Filippino example. Allow me to lay my “cards” on the table on this matter. Should this be? I believe not! How can we have a Messianic Judaism without Jews leading the movement? Back to my last post, there are those gentile MJ leaders who have dedicated themselves to the cause and the vision of MJ, and I believe that this is acceptable under proper guidance and direction.
Yet, is total exclusion of gentiles really the answer? As I have stated numerous times in the past. There are those gentiles who will align themselves to the movement and I think they will be to our benefit if they are given correct understanding from the beginning. After some thought regarding the differentiation of different ethnic churches in their rightful space – I am not so sure that this would work for us? Sure there are those such as Blacks and Eastern orthodoxy who do well in this respect, but ethnic evangelical churches have had a tendency to be “half way houses” until Americanization. The uniqueness of Jewish life in Yeshua is in the sorting out of the various Torah dimensions – those for the Jews and those for the gentiles. So this becomes a draw for some people. Also, Jews have an eschatological purpose with uniqueness unlike any other ethnic group, so gentiles want to be connected to this. The whole “enchilada” produces a lot of challenges for us all, but we must remember we can’t compare ourselves to the others (blacks, Koreans, Eastern orthodox….) because the scenario is quite different. Gentiles will always be in our midst, but the key is to do our best in continuing in our Jewish calling and identity and yet train and teach those gentiles in our midst to be part of the movement in a GRACE (full) way as the acronym of R. Stuart implies. Israel is called to be the head of the nations, why not begin by teaching the gentiles in our midst Hashem’s design accepting those who will move forward with us in this context?
To be clear, I agree with Derek's immediately previous statement regarding Gentile inclusion. It is just clearly defining the contours and working towards that.
To Robert,
You make an interesting suggestion in that we just announce "it," whatever it may be, and see who stays. Someone whom I respect greatly pointed me toward Genesis 33:12-13. We have a pace we need to consider.
Consider this a "guest" post.
I have been following the course with great interest, and appreciate the sincere and open exchange of ideas that is taking place.
Sometimes we get locked into binary choices when there are additional options. I think that has happened in some of this discussion.
Mention has been made several times of congregations perhaps having to close down because they are preponderantly Gentile or have a Gentile leader (who is not interested in conversion). Although there may exist a case of a Gentile leader with a majority Jewish congregation, I do not know of one. So the issue really comes down to: What becomes of preponderantly Gentile congregations, especially with a Gentile leader?
IMO, the answer is NOT to close the doors but for such congregations to take a deep and serious look at their own communal identity -- who they really are as a people. If, as they should, they reach the conclusion that they are not a Jewish congregation (and therefore not Messianic Jewish), they should prayerfully and carefully reconfigure their worship and practices to reflect their identity. Of course, this could (should) include supporting Messianic Jews and Israel.
This would be a difficult process, but a visionary and godly leadership would be doing the congregation a great service by leading them gently through this process.
Imagine the peace of coming to grips with one's congregational identity on a deep level, then living in harmony with it before God, rather than trying to be communally Jewish, which they are not.
Robert -
In response to Carl's post:
Thank you Carl for your input it is greatly appreciated and convincing.
First of all, let me clarify that when I specifically spoke of “closing down” congregations which are lead by gentile leaders and predominately gentile in nature, I was using that as an extreme and unbalanced scenario and certainly not suggesting that in the least. My suggestion was to use the Gentiles that are brought into our midst and effectually train them in their responsibilities in supporting the congregation and the greater Klal Yisrael.
Regarding our dilemma (or our particular place in MJ) of predominately gentile populated congregations and your idea of taking a deep and serious look at who they really are is significant and I agree should be carefully reconfigured.
Our congregation has brought in many youth and is perhaps one of the larger youth groups in MJ. From this group I have two leaders who I am raising up (Bezrat Hashem) one is Jewish and the other is very likely with the last name of Lietz? Yet there are a few others that have a great gift and calling and yet they are not Jewish, in fact one is black and is going away to Bible school. I am in deep thought on how we can raise gentile leaders in the MJ movement with proper guidelines specifically gentile leaders. The only thoughts that I have thought of were to categorize MJ congregations into two divisions: Messianic Jewish (which would be lead by a Jew {either from mother or fathers side}and have a fair amount of Jewish population) and then have Messianic Congregations (congregations lead by gentiles with a love and devotion for Israel and the Jewish community with less Jewish population). I by no means am willing to disregard gentile youth for future growth for the MJ movement, rather I am hoping that this can be a topic we can carefully pray about and come to some general conducive, agreeable, non-bias guidelines. I hope I am not the only one facing this dilemma?
We'll we've really been "battling it out on this one!"
But that's a good thing because it's an immediate issue,and one at the heart of the movement.I really appreciate all your comments guy's on this..as we're in it together.
I still come to the conclusion,however, that maybe we^'re putting ourselves first, adn our immediate "feel good factor" before common sense.
Messianic Judaism hasn't helped bring Jewish people to know Yeshua more..that's the bottom line.
It's not so much about youth,about how we want to be grafted in,conversions, or if our grea6t great great grandmother ate gellite fisch so she COULD have been Jewish!!!
We're talking bringing G-d's people to know their saviour,and so far the results are pretty dismal.
What is more we got the backs up of the Jewish community.Why?
Because to the man on the street,you've got to be Jewish by blood line or the whole thing loses it's authenticity.
I know and understand that Gentile populations within the congregations will NOT accept this(as R dauerman stated"So to hell with what the Jews think...") but the reality is sadly very otherwise.
We need to hafe the courage to reflect and rethink and ask "who's Judaism is this,anyway"
I will be logging on again on this issue within the next 24 hours. From the looks of our postings, this is a real hot button issue--as well it should be. You folks are getting in touch with some pivotal issues for the future and viability of Messianic Judaism, or its non-future and non-viability. I have been up and GOING since 4:00 this morning, and it is now almost 8:00PM, so I may not be adding any verbiage tonite, but by tomorrow, Yes.
On the issue of Gentiles in our movement, a number of issues must be held in tension. First, there can be no justification for dealing insensitively and dismissively with someone simply because they are a Gentile. To do so would be a major sin. Nor should any Gentile reject him/her-self because they are not Jewish, also a sin, and not uncommon.
Many Gentiles have poured their lives, prayers, substance, and families into this movement. They deserve to be treated with respect.
Carl helps to point the way forward by calling for honesty and self-relflection on qustions of communal, and I would add, personal identity, always a good idea, but in the context of this discussion, by Gentiles, Gentile-led and Gentile-majority or totality congregations. Such candor and reflectiveness is hard to come by, but I have known some fine Gentile Messianic believers who are doing just that, in this class and outside of it.
Robert asks elsewhere about process--about personal and communal education on these matters. How to discern what direction is forward and how to progress in the journey. I have a few suggestions.
(1) Continue taking classes like this, engaging in discussions like this for leaders like you. This is crucial--a safe and informed place to discuss hot-button issues, to differ freely, and to look far down the road.
(2) Seek out trusted mentors whose can listen, instruct and counsel.
(3) Identify models, especially Gentiles who have dealt with/are dealing with these issues in their own lives with integrity and maturity.
(4) Pay attention to context. One's actions in these matters must differ from congregation to congregation. In some, the particular and unique calling of Israel has always been honored and at least partially undestood. They have have leaders. whether Jewish or non, who were unconfused and unconfusing on the matter. My congregation is such a congreation. Founded by two unconfused Gentile leaders, the following three leaders have all been Jews. But because of the maturity of the founders, there was very little weed-pulling to do. On the other hand, there are congregations which are a study in confusion, naiveté, and personalist definitions. In such contexts, one's conduct must be utterly different. And so for congregations falling anywhere along a spectrum between these extremes.
(5) Get familiar with change dynamics theory. For example, if you want to destroy most congregations with problems in this area, just begin preaching to the issue next week. You will probably be either out of a job or out of your mind within six months. There is much to be said and taught in this area--of how to introduce change in a social systems.
Three books come to mind.
Cerebral but authoritative is a book called "DIffusion of Innovations" about the birth of the whole discipline of change dynamics theory. This was developed by the US Dept of Agriculture which discovered that its agents could share the best ideas imaginable with farmers for how to improve their crop yields, etc., only to find that nobody listened to them. Why was that? The book explores why.
"The Change Agent" by Lyle Schaller, written in the 1970's is a good intro to change dynamics theory for the congregational leader.
"Change is Like a Slinky" by Hans Finzel. He is a disciple of my Leadership mentor, Bobby Clinton and is the CEO of the Conservative Baptists. His book is very practical, thorough and easy to understand. Find a review on the web.
(6) Gain clarity yourself before trying to help others get clear. This will take TIME.
(7) Realize we are talking about a process, not a moment. Things take time!
(8) Learn to distinguish between symptoms and diseases, between results and causes. Identify the root assumptions, often subconscious, that need to be addressed and modified. For example, "We've got to stop wearing tallises if we are Gentiles" is dealing with a symptom, with a result, not a cause. At the root is an assumption that in Christ, the distinction between Jews and Gentiles is abolished, or perhaps, the assumption that when one becomes a child of Abraham by faith, one becomes a Jew, or perhaps the assumption that doing Jewish things makes you a Jew. Which one or more assumptions is generating the behaviors in your context (wearing tallises, claiming Jewish identity, etc.)?
(9) After gaining clarity on the issues in your context, pick the most fundamental one and begin to study up on it, gain clarity, consult with sources, mentors, etc.
(10) To initiate change, begin with the opinion leaders in your congregation and win them to the cause. Opinion leaders are those persons to whom others instinctively go to check things out. They may be officers in your congregation, or no. They may be young or old, male or female, Jewish or Gentile. who are they? Begin one on one privately meeting with these people and winning them to the cause, an even eventually meeting with them in groups. But until they are won, don't spring anything on the congregation. The goal is, that when you DO begin dealing with matters in the congregation, and people run to these people to check things out as to whether all of this is a good idea, your opinion leaders will already be on your side and will stabilize the social system.
(11) Realize that the most effective way of teaching is modelling. People will tend to mirror the attitudes and behaviors of leaders. Therefore, model what you wish to see in your people, and choose elders,leaders, who model the right things as well.
(13) Realize that some people need to be taught, and others need to be resisted or even rebuked. Learn the difference between not being offensive, and those people who repeatedly use their sense of being offended to manipulate others. Just because someone is offended, does not mean you have been offensive. Learn the difference.
(14) Develop a circle of association with mature congregational leaders whose lives and principles you respect and who model where you want to be going. Pursue deepening relationship with them and accountablity to them.
(15) Read the good books and avoid lousy ones.
(16) At different stages in the journey, bringing in trusted outsiders to teach to the fundamental issues is a good idea--they can say things you cannot, and will be heard in ways you are not being heard. They will also corroborate what you have been saying from another source. I welcome such opportunities and would be happy to assist.
That's it for now!
Robert –
In response to R. Stuart
This is certainly a wealth of information well appreciated by the group.
Of all the valid points brought up by R. Stuart, number 16 speaks volumes to a community when trying to bring theological clarity to the forefront. According to point number 5, I have been there done that and actually carried a lot of stress as a community split right before my eyes. Looking hindsight, the split was good for the healthiness of this movement because the people who left had many theological “diseases” and misconceptions with no room for change. I did all that R. Stuart expressed such as preparing our yoet’s(advisors) then preparing our leadership team and finally bringing the vision to the community. Even with all the planning, things were ugly but healing followed soon afterward.
Regarding number 16. I can thank Dan Juster (and a few others) for being the “outsider” who stirred up those on the fence to making a final decision. Dan was like a trump card, and he came at an opportune time which was after I had laid the foundation from the top down.
At this point of the congregation, I am looking to see some more changes but will continue to take the good advice of R. Stuart and ready myself to ready the others on a road that looks long but hopeful. One (of many) points that brought much clarity and hope to me concerns the path/direction that is of the essence.
Dr. D.:
In regard to your post, and especially your statement:
"The word is out that our congregations are predominantly Gentile. There is no way that such congregations are a sign to the Jewish world that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah who enhances, validates, reinforces, empowers Jewish life..."
This issue of non-Jews in the Movement is indeed very difficult, emotional, and problematic. However, I don't know if the answer and responce is to be as harsh as your position. I do not argue that we have a problem. I also realize the difficulties over such issues. Bit again, and I have raised this question in these blogs before, do you have a practical solution other than treating non-Jews as outsiders and pushing them out of our synagogues. I am not sure I agree with that.
The Tanakh also speaks heavily of not mistreating the foreigners in our midst (meaning even the Torah recognized they will be there), and there are times like in Isaiah when non-Jews are praised for keeping shobbos.
I in no way have all the answers. i realize and struggle myself as a Messianic Jew with the issues you raised. But I do not know if mistreating non-Jews who desire to be in our midst and sojourn along with us is the best responce.
Robert,
I agree with you to a degree. I think that the blessing and the curse of MJ is in fact this issue. A sort of "thorn in the flesh" for our entire movement. I think that there will always, to one degree or another, be non-Jews in our midst. And...I think this is also a G-d thing.
To me it is kind of a "straw man arguement" to pretend that the larger Jewish world (at least in the U.S.) does not deal with this problem as well. Every Jewish community I have been involved in, or worked in, is wrestling with very similar issues. Albeit, it might be a little more defined for them than with us.
My point, as I mentioned above is that I think that non-Jews participating in MJ is Divinely sanctified. However, I think that the issue also need to be much more worked out.
Just last week, in the Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles, was an article dealing with the Reform Movement's new campaign to actively prostelitize to non-Jews. Here they are desiring to be in our situation. If they are successful, it will be interesting to watch how they begin to deal with the issues we currently are dealing with.
I think we face a great opportunity. We can either be a guide to groups like the Reform Movement, of successful integration of non-Jews into Jewish space, or not? The answer is not to kick them out. So as such, where do we go from here?
Good point Derek!
In responce to Rabbi Kinbar's pst (to which I also say "Thank You"), I agree with you. However, in also recognizing the reality that there does not have to be an "and or" position. What if there were congregations that were not exactly "Messianic Jewish," but clearly "Messianic Style" in a way that is not trying to be a wannabe MJ Congregation, but not a typical church? Obviously what draws many non-Jews is the richness of MJ.
Thank you Robert for your post in responce to Rabbi Kinbar's post.
Thank you Dr. Stu for your change theory responce.
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