In view of our Passover hiatus, which I almost missed (how do you miss a hiatus), we are STILL week FIve. So the following are your directions for this week. Enjoy!
We have some work to do this week, but I think it is a little lighter than the past two. It provides some variety, because it incorporates an element of learning my doing.
At any rate, here is what we have ahead of us this week.
Watching
DVD’s 3.1, 3.2, and 4.3. In my copy and perhaps in yours, 4.3 is defective, ending at about 34 minutes.
Reading
Sonsino chapters 1,3, 5 and related material in Section E in your packet. (You may read this somewhat lightly if time is crunched).me is crunched. We will be discussing it though, next week).
My blog posting on Messianic Judaism vs. Messsianic Judaism (alluded to as a handout on the DVD’s) found at
http://rabbenu.blogspot.com/2004/06/messianic-jewishism-popular-religious.html
My blog posting “Why I Need to Davven” (alluded to as a handout on the DVD’s) found at http://rabbenu.blogspot.com/2004/12/why-i-need-to-davven-part-one.html
Heschel, Section I (on prayer), which is pp. 85-90 in your packet, and 198-203 in Heschel/Rothschild book;
Olitzky and Judson, pages 69-74 in appendix G, and pages 87-103 in their book.
Appendix R - on Hitbodedut (You may read this somewhat lightly now, if ti
Doing
On your first DVD this week, I discuss Messianic Jewishism vs. Messianic Judaism. I expect we will have much to discuss on this matter, but ask that you hold your comments until next week, our output week.
The focus of this week is on the subject of prayer, and upon learning by doing, that is, experimenting with siddur prayer. Since we are all at various stages of experience and growth in this area, in our experimentation with Jewish prayer I am going to restrict us to one section this week, and that is the weekday Amidah, also known as the Shemoneh Esrei.
It is found on pages 99 through 119 in the Artscroll Siddur (Nusach Ashkenaz) which all of you are supposed to have. For this week, in addition to the readings and DVD’s specified, I am asking that you pray this Amidah in the morning on two or three separate days. In the context of that praying, which should be done standing, experiment with using these benedictions as a kind of outline or agenda for prayer—that is, in the midst of certain benedictions, insert your own prayers. This is especially appropriate in the benedictions for healing, for the blessing of the year (that is, for provision and sustenance), as well as others. I am NOT asking that your report on what you prayed for, but rather, that via the blog, you report on the texture of the experience—what can you say about it that is worth sharing? I would ask that you make three contributions to the blog on these matters, as well as supplying the traditional three questions from your reading and the DVD’s, and interacting at least twice with each other by way of comments.
On the DVD’s we discuss Hitbodedut, which is Jewish non-liturgical prayer. I am not asking that your experiment with that this week. This week, it is liturgical prayer you will be reporting on, specifically the Amidah/Shemoneh Esrei.
I ran across an interesting resource on line for liturgical prayer for those of you for whom it is new. Visit http://www.kakatuv.com/sitemap.html and roam around.
Let me know how this goes for you. Above all, spend time in liturgical prayer—the Amidah/Shemoneh Esrei. Doing it daily wouldn’t hurt you at all.
39 comments:
On inserting my own prayers during the Amidah:
I realize I may be jumping the gun here, but I have been doing this on and off for some time. When I began this, I used to offer my own prayers at the end of the Amidah and before Tachanun. Then, where the context was appropriate in the Amidah, I added my own prayers as those may have been. I have since arrived at a confluence of the two. In keeping with tradition, there are certain parts where personal petitions are permitted, of course in traditional form. And where my prayers could be offered here, I would do so. For those that did not fall into being offered within the Amidah in accordance with tradition, at least as I understand it, I would add those petitions after the Amidah, before taking three steps forward.
Paul has two questions as to the form of the questions to post on the blog this week:
Why is this week the same as every other week? Why, on this week, don't we get to ask four questions?
Okay, I really don't want to take on developing four questions but I couldn't resist.
Addendum to the prayer comment:
I realized that I really didn't share the impact. Personally, I can't say that my prayers in this format are any more effective than previously. Nor can I say that they are any less effective. Candidly, I have not found any realistic means to measure the effectiveness of prayer at all. So I offer them in faith. And in that faith, because these petitions are offered at the time I am offering one of the three or four daily sacrifices to Hashem prescribed in Torah, and, as such, represents the offering itself, I believe that these petitions offered at these times are pleasing and acceptable to Hashem. Again, I have no evidence of this. What is more, now that I am having to write this down, I realize that I need to review Leviticus to see how this fits within the rubric of the sacrificial offerings. But that is my present belief.
Traditionally, one of the places where personal petitions are offered is during the benediction "Sh'ma Kolenu." Also, names are inserted during the blessing for a complete hearling IRefuah Sh'lemah). However, I imagine there are many who do as I do, intermingling their prayers with the statuory prayers, so that one's prayers become a sort of dialogue with the siddur, and, of course, always, a dialogue with Hashem. A
A Happy Passover to all of you. And more question . . .
On all other weeks, some people do not dip into this blog even once. On this week, why not twice?
Stuart
Paul,
On the interrelationship of levitical sacrifices and traditional prayer, Allen Singer, Mark Kinzer's associate at Congregation Zerah Avraham, Ann Arbor, has developed some sort of teaching materials.
He is a sensible and thorough student. I would suggest you contact him and ask him if there is anything he can send you on the matter,
Stuart
I am not very experienced with the Siddur, so some of this was very new to me. Having said that, this did not feel foreign, and was overall a good experience.
What was most meaningful to me is the way the Siddur helped me to direct my prayers, as I went through certain benedictions, I was lead to pray for certain things and or people, so their was a good amount of focus as I went along.
Here are my three questions for this week on prayer:
I was thinking how we are going to present liturgical forms of prayer as in the Siddur to Jewish people who are unacquainted with it,who are Ba'al Teshuvah (newly observant) or who have come out from christian charasmatic/pentecostalist types of settings,or who may come to Messianic synagogues which closely resemble orthodox and conservative synagogues
It's so different...unless you're familiar with "high church" or Monastic prayer!!
And then there's all the rigidity that some of our synagogues (Traditional)inject into it:¨
1.You have to use the exact words...(as if it was some sort of magical Hebrew cocktail!)
2.The restrictions on interjectory prayer so as not to be conflictual with the overall flow of the prayers...
3.The neccessity to go at "light speed"..(especially ultra-Orthodox!! anyone else had this experience?).
Maybe an introduction for newcomers should highlight that 1.The most important difference that sets Jewish prayer of from other prayer,and indeed other activities that take up most of our day...is that it's in the 1ST person plural and not 1st person singular.It seeks the well being of the wider Jewish community out above all else.It's less about self than Christian prayer...It would seem.
2. It is a practical Mitzvot (avodat hashem bitefilah) and although for those coming from Religious homes it is "second nature" for most of those new to it, stuggles are to be expected.As the DVD's tease out...it is by doing that we learn...
3.As for the repetitive nature of the prayers..maybe we can support newcomers by illustrating how life experiences continue to redefine phrases,etc to make them something quite new,everytime we dive in...("Struggle to find the new in the old":Rabbi Yitzak Luria)
4.I don't think that the exact phrases,the exact words are some sort of sacred formula that's "off limits".With this view we get pretty close to the intrinsic power of eastern religious chants,etc..which seems borderline to me.However, to pray in Hebrew with more or less the same meaning is simply (Kugel) "To use the language of Jewish thoughts".There lies it's power...
5.Rabbi Steinsaltz was an enthusiast of his orthodox congregation interjecting personal prayers all through the AMIDAH...and bringing our personnal petitions forms a basic function of prayer,even moreso to the neophyte.
6.The most important step for the newcomer to prayer it seems to me is...will he/she belive it!!!Is Adonai really present...Bothered??...
All the explications/biblical texts/etc in the world do little to ease this "leap in the dark"
How can we ease the transistion from "prayers in life" to a "life of prayer"..especially for those Jewish believers in Yeshua,cut off from the "wider"community?
My second question follows from various Jewish books I read recently on prayer(Olitsky+ Judson,Kugel,Herschel;etc)
Most of these will somewhere along the line talk about the "sacrifice of prayer"
As I understand it ,this would seem to imply Avodat Halev(service of the heart)..the "dry times",perhaps the times drenched in doubt and despair,etc...when prayer is impossible..un-rewarding...unanswered?
"In these times..do not be discouraged,,they are the jewels of prayer"(Tikouré Zohar)
The Christian concept of prayer utters similar sentiment,(Dark night of the soul:St John of the Cross;etc)..where these times are attributed to "desert experiences"..
Now I'm not so sure....
How do we equate this ides of "sacrifice in prayer" to Psalm 40::
"sacrifice and offerings..you do NOT desire"
Rather:
"here I am...I come to do your will...your TORAH is within my heart"
It would seem to me that using vocabulary like "sacrifice" is getting back to the idea of:
1.What do I get out of prayer
2.It's all about ME
It's real focus should be the "pruning" that needs to take place in us ,BEFORE we can bear fruit...
That it would seem to require "honesty to owning up to sin and really wanting change" that is rarely talked about..
Instead of "dwelling in the desert" maybe we should concentrate more on the disbelief of the psalmist:
(almost in a shocked tone).."WHY are you so downcast within me,O my soul? (Answer=)Hope and praise in your GOD.
It would seem to me that wallowing around in the "desert experience has become a "trendy word"..the "dry,stoney" period of prayer...
If I find myself there I force myself to say "..up,on the road..take the centre off yourself..you have a calling,"sacrifices" are of little use...just a humble and contrite heart..ready to do your will...
If only!!
Am I being to hard on myself??
And now for a third question:
I was really touched by something on the DVD's that buzzed around my head for several days.It's a new paradigm shift type of idea,that forces me to re-think on prayer..
The phrase was something like this:
" when we decide to bring forth something to G-d that we want him to deal with,really want him to change,,G-d is right there..ready to start...come on let's get started...let's deal with it"
This is really important because it implies that G-D acts rapidly,is just waiting for us to ask his help,etc
This concept would change things for me if I really believed it! Itwould mean that I could now (without experiencing it)know that G-D was working interiorly in me!
What do we say to people/to ourselves,when year after year we don't see any results in our interior lives(same sins/failings)?
I chanced upon the thought that this may be where MITZVOT may have it's role,with observance propelling us further along the "derech" when no visible signs of change are in evidence at all.
As for my experiences with the Siddur and the AMIDAH this week (three days):
I experimented with several ways of reciting the blessings:
I started praying the blessing slowly,as I would read any prayer book,(Christian/Jewish) and by the time I got to the Malkhut beit David my mind was wandering.
I was feeling very guilty because all those fine people on the DVD's were praising the "texture" of the siddur,etc..and I was finding it a bit dry!!
I tried saying the blessings to myself..in my head ,instead of out loud..and it was certainly worse...
Then I remembered a CD I had heard of a lute player who had recorded the "song of songs" (Jean David,Algerian Jew).The disc was mostly spoken..but spoken with the Hebrew recited really really slowly...
This "opened up" the Siddur and the AMIDAH for me..The SELICHAH is so beautiful in this way..The refuah takes on new life(I even entered up chanting this to an improvised simply melody!!)
I felt strangely linked to all those in my immediate family, no longer here on earth,who recited these same blessings...
I'm more sure than ever that authentic Jewish Messianic worship must drink deeply from these streams...But how?? It's so different from what people want!!
Another thing:
I didn't feel any qualms about praying the Birkat Haminim taking "Lamalshinim" as being slanderers, not sectarians(Laminim)
What ever the correct interpretation I don't think Messianics need to be overtly paranoid about these sorts of points.There are bound to be obstacles to our calling towards unity with the wider Jewish community..let's not be put of course by this.G-D knows what we have in our hearts..it is his calling!!Anyway,we can think of slanderers as being those who profane G-D and his works..
A final thing:
I was very humbled this morning...After having tried my best to pray with Kavvanah,and after having prayed the Hoda'ah thanksgiving to the Lord,I came across a book with photos from some of the progroms in Poland,of prisonners praying,prisonners trying to partake in "makeshift,hidden"shabbats..
How could Jews in these situations have recited these sorts of "thrusting" prayers in the context of utter hopelessness??....
I pray the words even more slowly...
Paul's three questions (posting today as I may be unable to do so tomorrow. Chag simayach):
(1) What is the definition of Holiness?
(2) What is the definition of Spirituality?
(3) Are Holiness and Spirituality related at all and, if so, how?
While these questions are very basic, I think that they need to be answered in order for us to proceed with our discussion in a meaningful way. And the responses need not be precise nor do I think that they need to agree. But we do need to have an understanding of the scope of what these concepts embrace.
My understanding is that Holiness, in our context, is living a Torah observant life. Let's face it, living this way sets us apart, which is part, if not all, of what being Holy is. With that, there are some that would say living a Torah observant life is the antithesis of spirituality. If that is so, then I will never be spiritual and will be glad of it. We are called to be Holy. We are not called to be Spiritual, or are we? It depends on how we define these terms I suspect. Naturally, this calls us to look at what Spirituality is and then what one of the consequences of Holiness is. With that, we may see that these two concepts are not mutually exclusive and may overlap significantly.
To me, Spirituality is having a meaningful relationship with G-d on His terms. With that definition in mind, it would seem that Holiness must, at a minimum, be a subset of Spirituality. Let’s now consider Hitbodedut. This practice falls squarely within this definition of Spirituality. However, it is not mandated by Torah or by Yeshua as far as I can recall. Perhaps Messiah was modeling this at Gethsemane. Regardless, it does not appear to fall within the rubric of Holiness as I understand it. With that, it seems to me that Holiness falls wholly within Spirituality since it does advance a meaningful relationship with G-d. (If you love me...) but, in light of Hitbodedut, not all of Spirituality is Holiness. I will also concede that altering the definitions of these terms will yield different conclusions and, further, that I may be subject to correction. I can also see just having a meaningful relationship with G-d on His own terms is being Holy in and of itself. But in our context, we fall right back into Torah observance. As always, I am interested in your comments.
Response to Paul’s Comments on Holiness & Spirituality
“My understanding is that Holiness, in our context, is living a Torah observant life.”
Holiness is being set apart to God and for God. Pre-Yeshua, people could only be set apart for God by the sacrifices that were offered at the Tabernacle and the Temple. Since Yeshua came, it is now the appropriation of HIS sacrifice that makes us clean.
Hebrews 10:14 “because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
This chapter then goes on to discuss the passages in Jeremiah where God makes with us His new covenant on our hearts. We are partakers of this New Covenant as evidenced by the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit.
So I see that the writer here lays a foundation for Holiness that is based on God’s grace to us, and proven by the indwelling of the Ruach. God makes us Holy by His Holy Spirit. God sets us apart, by means of putting His Spirit in us.
It is from this foundation that we are able to do what is right in God’s sight, to be not just observant to His rule, but obedient as well. Chapter 10 continues, by saying that since all of the above is true, we should no longer deliberately keep on sinning, and that we should be spurred on toward love and good deeds (the other Great Commandment). So I would think that living according to God’s way of doing things is only possible today by the empowering of His Spirit.
This Morning's Prayer:
I followed R. Stuart's instruction about getting up, brushing my teeth, showering, then putting on a Kippa and Tallith before entering into my prayer time.
I spent this morning going over parts in English and Hebrew, some times looking at the Hebrew especially carefully when something caught my eye in the English.
My phone rang somewhere in the middle, but I didn't answer it. At times this is a hard thing to do (not answer the phone) because life comes knocking (or crashing) at the door when we shut the door to be alone with the king.
I would say this morning was a good experience. Although I was not able to finish all the prayers before I needed to go on with the day.
This leads me to an official questions,
Is it better to speed through the rest of the Amidah (in a sense, just finishing the motion) when we run out of time, vs just putting the siddur down and?
3 experiences of the Amidah
1.The 3 steps we take as we approach Hashem in the Amidah seemed to me a way of re-enacting the Sinai experience. It gave almost brought me to a place described in lectures such as described in R. Stuart’s Emmanuel Service where people were encouraged to imagine being in the story of Zechariah in the NC. This was very experiential to me, and this is one aspect of Jewish prayer that I thoroughly enjoy.
2.The portion on repentance, allowed me to pause and think about how I might have offended G-d or my fellow man. What resounded clearly was how one is to strive towards a “perfect repentance” before Hashem. I saw this more as a being perfected each day as we learn how not to offend G-d or our fellow man.
3.The health and healing portion was very meaningful, especially as I prayed for those who cam to mind who are ill. I realized that I have compiled a similar personal prayer that was very much in line with this specific portion.
Rabbi:
Thanks for encouraging us to pray the Shakharit. I should do it more often.
Had a transcendent time this morning. First, I enjoyed, as I sometimes do, eating breakfast while staring at a painting on my dining room wall. It is a painting of the Third Temple and it is particularly beautiful in the morning.
Praying for the rebuilding of the Temple, the return of David's throne, and the resumption of the fire offerings of Israel has always been my favorite part. I am eschatological.
Thanks for letting me know that the Shema Qolenu is a great place for requests. Made my prayer more special.
Derek
Rabbi:
2 questions about prayer:
1. In the early days I used to think davvening meant the act of swaying during prayer. I now know better, but is there a name for the swaying?
2. I am curious about the rationale for swaying. I tell people it is a way to increase concentration, but I have always felt something else (though I've not heard anyone day it). I feel as though I am repeatedly bowing to Adonai. I enjoy this act of devotion. Is that an element of the swaying that anyone speaks of?
Derek
Hope everyone had a great Pesach,and a great celebration of our risen king!
I posted a couple of questions during the "hiatus" week so I don't know if I 've got the right to post anymore...but two things are bothering me!
A difficult G-D to contact??
1. In the DVD (4.3 I think) we have "Ros"(Kinzer?) who makes the comment about how she feels her time in liturgical Jewish prayer seems to be so much more communicating with G-D than "all those years in the charasmatic movement that wasn't about G-d at all"
How on earth can we explain that one can spend honest,devout moments in prayer and, yet,years later one may turn around and say that they were "off base".I think ,as a response,you gave(R.Stuart) the reply that in fact "few checks and balances exist to explain our experiences in prayer"
My question is,what "checks and balances" can we have, to assure we are in fact doing G-D's will?"
2."Throwing out the baby with the bathwater".
Appropriate Jewish prayer is not praying for things that are already decided..such as the sex of one's unborn child(DVD example).But can't we kill the whole liberating spirit of prayer through our mediator, Yeshua, by following this route? My experiences and practices are to pray for anything,and everything as a way of centering all worldly activities,events back to him...it feels like a straightjacket if I'm now obliged to validate all spontaneous prayer...any offers??
In response to Paul's question and Nathaniel's reply on Holiness and spirituality:
It's a really interesting question and involves terms that are often used interchangably and thus leading to confusion in the context of our relationship with G-D.
It would seem to me that it's useful to define "set apart" in the first place.This does not,I imagine, bestow holiness on us or as a people.Many people can set themselves apart for numerous reason,good or bad.However,it MAY provide the fertile ground in which holiness may flourish.A Torah observant lifestyle takes it's roots in this context..
As for holiness:we are called to it.What are we called to? To "come back to me ,with all your heart.(Hosea)...not to let sins keep us apart from G-d"."To love your God and to love your neighbour as yourselves..in these two commandments are held the whole law and all the prophets"
Fortunately,we have Yeshua,who has paid the ultimate sacrifice for our failings in this regard,as everyone falls short of this "Holiness".
As for spirituality..I would imagine it has more to do with the "Language" in which certain spiritual thoughts may occur(to pinch a phrase from Kugel)or a type of "mindset" that we choose to use in our prayer time with G-D.So that someone may use Ignatian spirituality,Jewish spirituality,Benedictine spirituality..but all in the context of our communication with HaShem.I don't think one can "act out " a spirituality in daily life (that's holiness).Spirituality has more to do with the framework in which our relationship with ADONAI is built.
Robert
Q1-
In Sonsino’s book page 8, he says, “In many areas, Kabbalah has even reached the masses: In Tel Aviv, the Kabbalah Learning Center has a display in the central bus station.” I first want to clarify that I know little about Jewish Kabbalah and actually look forward towards learning more about this in R 532. My question is how open can our movement be to the Kabbalah when very few of our leaders know anything about it? Most MJ Rabbi’s that I have spoken to seem afraid of it (should they?) Christians seem to get their ideologies of Kabbalah from the media and usually say it’s demonic. The reports that I hear from those serving in Israel is that many young Israelis are drawn to this movement and the fruit of it is very crass, sinful and far from a respectable Judaism. America seems to have a “McDonalized” version of Kabbalah, so how is our Americanized Kabbalah different from that in Israel? I was told by a Chabad-Lubavitch that true Kabbalah is not really exposed to the public, but rather carried down orally Dor L’ Dor?
Q2-
In Lecture 3.2 you stated, “We need to be careful not to restrict people who say – I really sensed G-d in a sunset… or a mother sensing God in a birth.” You then asked if this was to be rated 1st or 2nd rate, and that Providence is Hashem in the middle of ordinary circumstances. I certainly agree that we should not demean these experiences; I personally have had quite a few. But my question is, isn’t this type of “awe” similar to that of the charismatic movement? A common event in our congregation is to have a non-Jew with a Pentecostal background come in and say, “G-d is saying this, or I witnessed gold dust in my bedroom so forth and so on. Where do we draw the line to where experiencing G-d doesn’t become a “Woodstock” experience? It seems that the Reconstructionist perspective of, “enriching the individual emotionally and intellectually filling him/her with a sense of great awe,” is quite similar to the Charismatic experience?
Q3
How can praying in Tongues relate to Hitbodedut if at all?
Robert
Response to Paul's 1st of 3 questions.
I will only respond to Paul’s question, “What is the definition of Holiness?” I have understood holiness as being separate unto something, Biblically separated from the ways of the world (the present world system under the control of Satan) and separated unto the ways of Hashem.
I see Torah observance as a part of holiness, but I also see holiness as being separate from the cravings, lusts and boasting that is not from the Father( Jn. 2:15-17)
A healthy approach to a life of holiness is through repentance, renunciation leading to restoration. Our Creator and Redeemer called us to a life of holiness, so therefore He provides a way through his Spirit. The Ruach HaKodesh empowers us, the blood of Yeshua washes us, and the Torah guides us, the chen of Hashem enables us, while the Father blesses and keeps us. I think of the words of John Flavel, “what health is to the heart, that holiness is to the soul.” The nefesh (in rabbinic Lit) is associated with words like: soul, spirit, mind, etc.. The NC gives clarity on how to submit these things to the Father thru Yeshua who gives us his Spirit to live a life of holiness. Maybe in this sense I can see a relation between holiness and spirituality.
In reply to Robert and Nathaniel:
Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying. Both of you speak to what makes it possible for us to live lives set apart for G-d but your response seems to avoid addressing the result. How can you tell if someone is living a life set apart for G-d? As one of you points out, living a life according to Scripture. How can you tell if a Jew is living a life set apart for G-d? Same thing. But in our context this, based on our earlier discussions, must mean a Torah observant life, both written and oral. While I understand that Yeshua's sacrifice atones for our sins and that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live holy lives, these facts do not alter our covenant responsibilities to G-d.
As an aside, in light of one of your comments in which you suggest that it is impossible to live a holy life absent the indwelling of the Spirit, are you conceding that the Orthodox and the Chassids are filled with the Spirit? While this is beyond the scope of the immediate discussion, I believe it is worthy of consideration in light of our present discussion.
As always, I am interested in your thoughts.
Response to Johns post:
John, I am thinking the same thing as to how “How on earth can we explain that one can spend honest,devout moments in prayer and, yet,years later one may turn around and say that they were "off base".
It’s a challenging, and humbling thing to realize and admit when we have been wrong in the past. I believe in the checks and balances in our prayer life, and I think one of the biggest checks (or maybe it’s a balance) is accountability. When we have people that we are in relationship with, and that we are accountable to, we have someone that loves us in the position to help us discern what we believe God is telling us.
I know in my life, when I believe I receive something from the Lord, the last thing I want is for someone to tell me that I am incorrect (aka wrong). I mean after all, I did hear from God! The truth is that God is not the only one speaking. We have our own thoughts and desires (our flesh), and the enemy pushing and shoving to get in our ear. So I would say having an accountability relationship is paramount to having a successful prayer life.
As for your comments on freedom in prayer, I pray more often than not as a rule. I forget where it says it in the New Covenant, but we are supposed to be praying continually, offering all manners of prayers. Personally, I pray for things where I have a scriptural basis to do so.
Question 1:
On your DVD, you mentioned that when we see Yeshua, we see God in a very compromised view. I would like to see this further explained in the context of Hebrews 1, which talks of the son being the exact representation of God’s being, the full radiance of His Glory.
Questions 2:
Is it better to speed through the rest of the Amidah (in a sense, just finishing the motion) when we run out of time, vs just putting the siddur down
Question 3:
In one of the books (I forget which), a story is recounted about a man at a prayer service, where one of the gentlemen next to him says, “I’ll see you at the other side.” Now I really appreciate that comment, because prayer is a process that we go through with the Lord. What are some ways that this differs in a group setting? The way I see it, we should all be going through the process together.
Liturgical prayer is new to me and I don't consider the responsive reading off a church program as liturgical prayer although I suppose that this is suppose to be some semblance of it.
I am starting to take the time to do the Amidah in Hebrew from my siddur. I don't have alot of awareness at present other than the large amount of praise on focus on HaShem and that kavvanah comes from our heart as we pray from the sense or awareness of whom before we stand.My prayer life has changed from before I started this course in that I spend more time praising G-d and thanking Him for not only His provision and what He has done but also what He is doing and has done (future) even though it cannot be comprehended nor seen in the present. I am trusting in His provision and working things out in my life. Liturgical prayer certainly takes the focus off our wish lists or needs or demands and places it on G-d.
On holiness and spirituality, I would agree that you can't have one without the other. I'm not sure that they are in a dialectic. As we set time and a place aside for the Divine Presence, His Spirit or Presence fills that space/place. I agree that we have to be consciously aware of keeping that place or space for HaShem on a moment to moment time frame or continually. I sense that liturgical prayer will place more focus on G-d and create more awareness of his indwelling Presence.
There are so many times in all this that the whole experience is so overwhelming and I ask myself how am I capable of truly being spiritual. I have to remind myself of what Rav Shaul speaks of in 2nd Corinthians chapter 4:7 where he states "but we have this treasure in earthen vessels,so that the surpassing greatnessof the power will be of G-d and not from ourselves".This is quite sobering and also takes the pressure off so to speak, to realize we are just cracked earthen vessels and it is His glory and power not ours that we carry.
Brillant insight Cornelius! That's a great verse Cor.4:7(We are but earthen vessels..) and as you say it takes all the pressure off performance in prayer.Something that the material on Hershel mentions as well,in exploring hitbodedut.Taking the "show" away.Just pure communication between G-D and man.I couldn't help wondering if Yeshua had to deal with all of this!I mean he had liturgical/temple prayer..and certainly we could possibly interpret his times alone on the mountains as Hitbodedut..but the mystical side of things,body swaying,etc...One other difference, Jewish spirituality seeks G-d for some thinkers,as the "higher being of ourselves"(Fromm),or a limited G-D but ultimately good(Sonsino'S book)
Contrast this with what Yeshua knew as G-D his Father.It would seem to me that this relationship/focus of Yeshua's obedience towards his Father's love is one of the most informative elements that should guide our"holiness".Which may make our "spirituality" different from mainstream Judaism
Rabbi Stuart:
A comment and a question.
A comment on Sonsino chapter 6: Wow, a lesson on how to pray when (a) you don't believe in a personal God or (b) you don't feel compelled to use the traditional liturgy. I must admit, I don't care for this book.
A question from Heschel: I've heard many great things about Heschel and only read a little of him. I was shocked when he said on page 200: "Prayer is not a soliloquy. But is it a dialogue with God? Does man address him as person to person? . . . we do not communicate with God. We only make ourselves communicable to him."
Am I misunderstanding Heschel or is he saying that prayer is trying to get God's attention? I was appalled by that low view of prayer and God's hearing.
Derek
A little on my experience praying the Amidah:
I hate to admit it, but I used to view praying the Amidah as an exercise in improving my Hebrew. I thought I would never be able to read it smoothly and fluently. With practice, I can say that it has become faster and smoother (but I'm still not up to the light speed with which it is chanted in minyans).
I get excited especially about the eschatological in the Amidah. This is probably why I chose the Orthodox siddur in the beginning. I was aware that the Cons and Reform omitted the fire offerings of Israel.
Sometimes when I pray Amidah I cannot find kavanah, though I try. Other times, kavanah comes easily. I find the same true with musical worship services. The human heart is fickle.
Derek
Robert
In Response to Paul:
Paul, my response is nothing more than saying our lives will be different in Messiah and the result will obviously equate to obedience to Hashem's mitzvot.
You said -"How can you tell if someone is living a life set apart for G-d?
My answer = By keeping the commandments - John 14:15
You said - "How can you tell if a Jew is living a life set apart for G-d?
I can tell by their love and by the fruit of their life.( I John 4:8) One can tell me that he daven’s 10 times a day(slight exaggeration here) , but I am not impressed at all if his life does not display G-d’s love and compassion. I John 4 & 5 speak volumes to your question above.
You said, "While I understand that Yeshua's sacrifice atones for our sins and that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live holy lives, these facts do not alter our covenant responsibilities to G-d."
You are correct they do not alter rather they enhance everything! We must remember one very important factor here = We should take caution that Judaism is not presented as so very good, way beyond how good it is, that it almost seems that the Jewish need for Yeshua is not significant. Our love for Yeshua rightly keeps us within our covenant responsibilities, this is a given.
A question to Paul – Do we preach Jews back to Judaism or to Yeshua and thru Yeshua connecting to Jewish calling?
In response to Derek:
"Sometimes when I pray Amidah I cannot find kavanah, though I try. Other times, kavanah comes easily. I find the same true with musical worship services. The human heart is fickle."
I am realizing more, that really worshiping God is a decision we make based on the reality of who God is. I am certain that there are times where I feel like I have really worshiped, yet it was more of my emotions. I am sure the reverse is also true, where God has received my worship as a true offering, and yet it was not an emotional high.
God looks at our hearts, and ironically, I believe that if we ask Him to help us worship Him as He really deserves, He will help us. So even if we don't always have our heart in it (which is another way that I say, "I don't feel like I am worshiping"), remember, God is greater than our hearts! He is the only one who can empower us to worship Him
In response to Robert:
Very good question, although it appears that I am not clearly stating my point. Here I am talking about Messianic Jewish spirituality in the sense of its manifestation. In light of that, I understand why you cite the Scripture you do.
Your question about whether I am suggesting that we "preach the Jews back to Judaism," my answer is an unqualified yes. The reason my answer is yes is because in pressing into Messiah, we are pressing into our covenant faithfulness, our Judaism. However, I am not suggesting that Judaism is the goal; it is a consequence of the goal of knowing Messiah and, consequently, knowing G-d.
The Siddur is something I grew to love many years ago. As one who davens regularly, and daily from the Siddur, to those who have maybe found it a bit dry or difficult, it is something that at first really is not so easy. Jewish prayer is often foreign because it must be learned. However, as one becomes more and more familiar with the substance of Jewish prayer, it does indeed become a springboard to really engage G-d on very deep levels. There are times when I experience G-d so deeply from the prayers. These last couple days of Pesach, I really was spoken to from some of the festical additions to the Amidah as well as through the Mussaf (additional) Amidah read during holidays. The references to Mashiach this year really jumped out to me this year, and really added a special touch to my Pesach.
Question for Robert:
Is there any reason you chose "davvening 10 times a day" as a representation for an observant Jew as opposed to one given to extreme acts of gemilut chasadeem (deeds of loving kindness), bikor cholim (visiting the sick), or tzedakah? Just to be clear, these would fall within the rubric of Torah observance. We, and I mean especially us, have to avoid limiting our view of Judaism to simply Torah study, halackhic observance, and davvening, which do have their own merit but are not, in and of themselves, the representative whole of Judaism.
Early in the first lecture, I believe, R. Stuart spoke about Yeshua being the lens through which we see the Father and not eclipsing the Father. He was the embodiment of the Father as that in Yeshua we could see and know the Father as Yeshua only did and spoke what the Father gave or told him. In a similar fashion, I sense that through Yeshua and his blood covering we are able to approach the throne and boldly come into His presence but in awe. If through prayer, as a transcendent experience we come to know G-d more fully through liturgical prayer in praise and worship and He reveals himself more fully in this experience, we become more in unity with the Father, the Creator through His revealed will and revelation of who He is. His Divine Presence can fill us and we can carry this in our earthly tents or tabernacles-His Holy Spirit. Through the lens of Yeshua and His mediation, we prayerfully will be allowed in to get a deeper grasp and revealed knowledge of the Father.
One of the questions that comes up in prayer is whom do we pray to? I ask this because I hear we should pray to the Lord Jesus or others pray to the Holy Spirit yet my understanding is that we come before G-d through the mediation of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit as our revelator and Helper. Yeshua is the revealed Word of God and no one can come to the Father except through Him and He reveals the Father to us. He bids us to do the will of the Father as He did and that subsumes mitzvot or commandment keeping out of love of G-d. Now this may sound ambigous; how do you see the Father, through the lens of Yeshua through liturgy? Certainly, in the Amidah, there is an awareness of Whom before we are standing. We have to have an awareness that as we pray the Amidah, that we do this or rather approach HaShem through Yeshua as our intercessor rather than just straight liturgy? On the other hand, it is stated that Yeshua is the Word of G-d, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Hence, it is not to difficult for me see all Scripture, the Tanakh in particular, as embodied in Yeshua who came in the flesh. Thus as we pray the Amidah, we are using the Word of God and we are praising G-d using His word and perhaps in a transcendent way, as we liturgically pray this way, His word indwells us and reveals/internalizes His will within us in a transcendent transforming way. I hope I am not off line in any of these comments.
In response to Corneliusm
You ask very valid questions. I agree that we approach the Father through the mediation of our High Priest, Yeshua, which is made possible by his sacrifice. I also agree that we are able to do this in ways unimaginable without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. As for me, I pray to G-d and am thankful for Yeshua and the Comforter He sent after his execution. Even with that, I think we are adrift in our discussion and may well be talking past one another since we really haven't attempted to nail down the definitions of spirituality and holiness.
Shalom and good Sabbath.
Robert
Responding Back to Paul,
Q1
This sounds to me that we both agree, but possibly have the MJ cube on different sides? I am very secure in being a Jew, but I know that our movement has a ways to go and I pray for the right balance.
Q2
No particular reason for the “davvening 10 times.” I was just trying to make the point that regardless of a person’s religious duty, the issue still remains a heart issue. I base this on Jer. 17:9-10. Very true, that Judaism is not limited to a few observances, rather it is very open to all that Hashem allows us to encounter and do. Good point!
In response to Robert:
Trust you had a good Shabbat. We do appear to be approaching the same idea from different directions. But the discussion is informative. Thank you.
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