Monday, March 12, 2007

Week Two - Responding to Your Questions: Part Two

Friends,

As I said yesterday, rather than inundate you with an avalanche or information, I am continuing to parcel out my responses to your work from last week over three or four days this week, with my last post being on Wednesday. (You will have until midnight Thursday to complete your work).

Your task remains to log on each day to see if I have posted (I will post no later than 2:00 PM Pacific Time each day), to read what I post each day, and to respond to at least one of my essays for that day indicating with some vigor your agreement or disagreement, or perhaps discussing applicability of this essay to your own context, or better alternatives you would propose other than the viewpoint I suggest. In other words, in your comment, I am asking you to engage with what I say and discuss its level of truth and applicability in reference to the MJ Movement and your own context. This will mean that you need to post a minimum of three or four comments this week (one for each day that I post). Please see the previous posting for more details on what is expected this week.

Following are two essays, rather long, one responding to a questioin from John, and one from Cornelius. Your job--interact with one of them, and also interact with each other. And if you are behind this week, catch up!



john said...
Question 1.
Although I thoroughly agree with anyone who seeks Teshuvah(repentance) and a return to a holy life rooted in Halakhah,Talmud Torah,Shabbat observance, etc., I feel that the “greater riches” issue needs to be firmly tempered with the other side of the balance which would seem to me to be “greater judgement”. Isn’t it this issue of a superior destiny, superior rewards, that makes Gentile Yeshua believers very nervous? Haven’t we over-emphasized the rewards stemming from the overwhelming kindness of the Father, at the expense of the “sterness” Rms 14 of the Father to those of whom more was expected because more was given?


John, we cannot escape nor tamper with either side of the equation. If the Laws of Torah are God’s laws to us as Jews, then we do face greater culpability by virtue of our Jewish status, whether we wish to embrace that culpability or not. This is why Paul can say in Galatians 5 that anyone who receives circumcision is obligated to keep the whole Law. It is a covenant obligation—not simply a choice of style. As for whether Gentile believers get nervous or not, is that really the point? I don’t mean that we should be crass and uncaring about the reactions of our Gentile brethren, but neither can we nor should we redraw the boundaries of Messianic Jewish obedience to placate anyone or to include everyone. The laws are God’s laws, the obedience is the responsibility of the family of Jacob. It is our obligation (Gal 5:3), not to be negotiated away.

This does not make us better than anyone else, nor should anyone act as if this is the case. Rather, God has established different households in creation (this discussion in Pauline texts borrows categories from Aristotle). In the Jewish household, these laws, statutes and ordinances are our responsibility—not so for non-Jews. This is why Paul will say that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters, but keeping the commandments of God. This statement comes in the context of discussing his principle that each person should remain in the situation in which he/she was called, Jews to remain Jews and Gentiles to remain Gentiles. When he says that what matters is “keeping the commandments of God,” in context, he is advocating that each should keep those commandments appropriate to his/her station—male or famale, Jew or Gentile, child or adult—in each case the halachic standard varies.

You ask, “Isn’t it this issue of a superior destiny, superior rewards, that makes Gentile Yeshua believers very nervous? Haven’t we over-emphasized the rewards stemming from the overwhelming kindness of the Father, at the expense of the “sternness” Romans 14 of the Father to those of whom more was expected because more was given?” Well, I have never used, nor do I choose to use, nor should we ever use the terms “superior destiny, superior rewards.” This is horrendous language, because if one is superior, then there is no category left for the other but inferior! Horrendous! This is neither Scripture’s language nor mine. Rather, Scripture underscores that Israel and Church from among the nations have differentiated destinies and roles, what I will call in my upcoming book “Converging Destinies.” And again, as for people getting “nervous” about this, what are we supposed to do? Jettison scripture? Soft-pedal obedience? Create a new tailor made lowest common denominator Jew-Gentile Messianic Judaism which offends no one? If the commandments God gave at Sinai retain any mandatory force for the sons and daughters of Jacob, then all of the options just mentioned are a form of apostasy.

Yes, there is a sternness here as well, an unavoidable sternness which we cannot modify away, or trim back. Scripture is always clear on this matter: Amos 3:2 – “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for your iniquities.” Now some will object that with the coming of Christ, we need not fear that punishment. I am not convinced. Should we imagine that with the coming of Christ, since there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, that obedience has become purely a matter of personal preference, “If it’s your style?” Do we believe that Jesus obeyed the Father for us so that we would no longer have to?

Yes, there is a sternness, and there is also an added privilege in being Jews (see Ps. 147:19-20). But it is not legitimate to tailor our religion so as to avoid the sternness, to modify the privilege, to relativize the importance of obedience, or to avoid offending those who resent the uniqueness of Israel’s calling.


Cornelius said...
Just one question for tonight and the rest tomorrow.
Why is it that whenever I introduce the requirement of Torah or “law observance” or better known as a faith obedience to G-d the Father through Yeshua as contingent [you meant “incumbent”] on every believer whether Jew or Gentile as a submission to His Lordship, that this with Gentile Believers hits a raw nerve. The dialogue or perhaps better put, monologue, then becomes a rathered cliched defense that is a hallmark of Church and evangelical bible study teaching that the law is dead and that we are under grace! This despite the commandments of Yeshua in numerous passages, that resound on “if you love me, you will obey my commandments”. I am not negating grace which was always present and I am not negating salvation through grace which by my understanding was always G-d’s standard and I am not advocating that we are saved by lawful behavior without the atonement of Messiah BUT having been saved through Messiah we uphold the Torah led by the Spirit. Now by this, I don’t suggest the supposition or presupposition that Gentiles have to become Jews, but based on my understanding of scripture, we are all called to walk in obedience which Paul designates as a halakhah to the new Gentile believers in Yeshua. Am I missing the point and should be considered legalistic? I bring all this out because, as a Gentile believer in Yeshua, I can’t escape the understanding from scripture that obedience to G-d is of paramount importance and that the whole Bilble is noten haTorah. I can’t help but believe that we as Gentile believers are missing something really big here in our spiritual life and journey. And this is reflective in the anemic quality of Christian church life and outreach to a dying world at large that is desperate for real Bibilical spiritual food but seeks elsewhere because of the failure of the Body in modelling or providing a picture of that way. The search and/or thirst for spirituality is well outlined by Demarest in his second chapter. I sense that Messianic Jews will supply what has been missing all these years in providing a completion and fullness to covenant life through Yeshua that escaped the Body when the schism occured.


Cornelius, I find in your question some matters that require a level of discernment almost entirely lacking in and around our circles. While it is true that there is and must be “a halacha,” that is, a way of life for Gentiles as well as for Jews, it is clear in Scripture that the pathways of obedience are different for Jews than non-Jews. There is much confusion, ignorance, misunderstanding, and heated rhetoric around this issue. But it is necessary for boundaries to be maintained and understood in our movement both for the sake of truth, for the sake of the cause of Yeshua in the Jewish world, and for the sake of the Messianic Jewish Remnant being a sign, demonstration and catalyst of God’s consummating purposes for the descendants of Jacob which involve a Jewish return to Torah obedience in the power of the Spirit and centered in Messiah.

You are right that much (not all!) of the Church world is skittish about commandment-keeping. But equally true, much of the Messianic world, and especially the Jewish Roots movement, is woefully ignorant and confused on these issues. There are too many Gentiles who embrace Jewish lifestyle out of a sense of elitism, superstition, and/or shame or sense of inferiority about being non-Jews. The latter is a scandal! To imagine that being born a Gentile is something to overcome is to slander the One who created you such and to sell short the magnitude of the salvation Yeshua purchased with his own blood! And by the way, Yeshua did not die to make Gentiles Jews, but to redeem them a Gentiles and to bring them into the commonwealth of Israel as Gentiles. This honors God by demonstrating him to be the King of the Nations, not simply of one nation.

On the question of Gentile adherence to halacha, I would say two more things. Surely it is possible for Gentiles with a confirmed calling to the Jewish people to bond with Jewish life deeply and respectfully. However, in and around our ranks, this is not what I usually find. What one finds instead is a kind of minimalism, a Jewish style charismatic culture which is not really a Judaism but rather Calvary Chapel with a tallit. Also, one frequently finds misappropriation and tampering (blowing Shofars to register charismatic excitement comes to mind as but one case in point), strangeness, selectivity, a sense of entitlement (“I’m a blood-bought Yeshua believer and that makes me the seed of Abraham so if I want to put on this tallit who is to stop me?"). One must realize that in trying on Jewish life, Gentiles are in a sense trying on someone else’s clothing. At the very least, one ought to ask permission: that is, one must enter into Jewish life respecting it as someone else’s holy heritage. I don’t find that attitude very evident in these matters, and when I do, I deeply respect the Gentiles who are capable of this level of awareness and respect.

Such awareness and respect inevitably involves being aware of and maintaining boundaries. While every Gentile man should wear a kippah when entering a synagogue, no Gentile man should wear a tallit. Why? Because a tallit betokens accepting the entire yoke of Jewish commandments. That would include the covenant sign of ritual circumcision—brith milah. When an uncircumcised male puts on a tallit he uses a holy Jewish object to tell a lie—that he accepts the yoke of Jewish commandment-keeping as his covenant responsibility, when his uncircumcised status says otherwise. What I find particularly troubling is how such parties do so with a sense of entitlement and resentment toward and who would protest. We see here how too often Jewish sancta become playthings for outsiders. Not good. Again, some things may be done without crossing these boundaries—but some things should be off limits. And the solution is NOT to invent a new religion where Gentiles can wear talleism and the berakah is adjusted accordingly. This to me is both cultic and disrespectful.

Those Gentiles who wish to fully embrace Jewish life should always be free to do so—and we should have a demanding and informed conversion process whereby they may take on that responsibility with integrity [which would include circumcision or at least tippat ha dam—the drawing of blood from the male member, mikveh for females, and a rigorous education program and an interview with an appropriate Bet Din for both]. It is a sobering thing: it involves saying, “I believe God has called me to take on this identity and these obligations for the rest of my life, even to the death.” This is no light thing, and is not the kind of bullhorn shofar-blowing yahoo Messianic Judaism I have sometimes seen (and yes, what I have described IS an extreme, and is not a fair description of everyone).

You are entirely right that commandment-keeping is a necessary aspect of the way of discipleship of all who name the name of Christ. You are also right that too many Christians are skittish about this for naïve and wrong reasons. But all of this must be processed with due respect for the differentiated callings of Israel and the Nations—even in Christ.

And by the way, we must beware of thinking that God is in the business of creating one relgion for everyone. What I mean is we ought not to see Messianic Judaism as superior to various forms of Christianity around us. Each of our communities must instead seek to be faithful to our own callings, without disparaging the callings of other wings of God's people. I must say this because of tne naive elitisim I have encountered from time to time. If one believes that God is creating one religion--one way of life for all people groups, and if one believes that Messianic Judaism is a God-given way of life, it is too easy to progress to the explicit or implict non sequitur of saying that Baptists, Episcopalians, Presybterians, Catholics, all manner of Christians are not only less enlightened, but corrupted by paganism. This kind of arrogance ill behooves a mature Messianic Judaism.

On these matters I cannot recommend too highly the position papers crafted by Dan Juster and Russ Resnik on the One Law Movements which you can find by Googling Juster, Resnik, "One Law Movements"

These are the positions that all in our Union should uphold. But they are fiercely resisted and refuted by people who differ, many of whom I believe to be doctrinally confused, operating out of a need for elite status, or a misbegotten avoidance of the stigma of having been born a Gentile (which stigma should NOT exist!), and, in some cases, driven by financial considerations. After all, who is going to make more money: someone who pedals Torah observance to Jewish Yeshua believers or to Gentile Yeshua-believers?

And yes, I am opinionated. But that doesn’t mean I am wrong, nor does it mean that I apply such opinions to all or even most Gentiles in our ranks. I just want to protect them and our movement as a whole from confused polemicists who may even be unclear about their own motives and conduct.

13 comments:

Paul Kugelman Jr said...

Paul responds to John’s 1st question and R. Dauermann’s reply:

R. Dauermann states it well and I wholly agree with him. However, I will approach this from a different aspect. In Revelation 14:11-12, John records, “There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey G-d’s commandments and remain faithful to Yeshua.”

As you are likely aware, the B’rit Chadasha was not in existence when this was written. In light of this, one is virtually compelled to conclude that John’s reference to “G-d’s commandments” is a reference to Torah. But does the Torah apply to Gentiles in any fashion? After the Flood, all of humanity less Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives is destroyed. So all of us on the earth today are from the seed of Noah. Gen. 9:1-8 set forth the terms of G-d’s covenant with Noah. But 9:9 tells us that it is for everyone. “I [, G-d, ] now establish My covenant with you [, Noah,] and your offspring to come.” Well, that is all of us who survived and were born in the post-flood era. Fast forwarding 500-600 years, we come to Mount Sinai. While the covenant here also applies to the offspring to come, it does not apply to everyone. It applies to Israel and its seed. With that, there is a covenant with Israel and a covenant with the rest of humanity.

Turning to Yeshua’s view on the continuing applicability of the Torah, I invite your attention to Matthew 5:17-19, where Yeshua is quoted as saying:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Coming back around to Revelation 14:12, the case for the continuing applicability of Torah obedience is compelling.

However, this is not the sum total of our charge. We are also to remain faithful to Yeshua. Sadly, some folks sincerely believe that Torah observance and remaining faithful to Yeshua are mutually exclusive in that doing one necessitates discarding the other. However, the reality is that we are charged with both.

Derek Leman said...

I wish to make two comments, the first very brief.
*************
First:
Rabbi Stuart, you said: "Rather, God has established different households in creation (this discussion in Pauline texts borrows categories from Aristotle)."

Wow, I would have to see the evidence for Paul borrowing from Aristotle. It seems to me that Aristotle was fairly well ignored until the revival of classical thought in the late medieval period. Plato was popular, but Aristotle? I have not heard that before. If you have seen evidence for that view in a recent scholar, I would love to look that reference up.

************
Second:
I want to disagree with you more, because disagreeing is more fun and leads to great discussion. Unfortunately you are speaking of matters on which we agree.

In your response to Cornelius you said: "What I mean is we ought not to see Messianic Judaism as superior to various forms of Christianity around us. Each of our communities must instead seek to be faithful to our own callings, without disparaging the callings of other wings of God's people."

I wish to agree and add to your comment. I am amazed when I see MJ smugness when we are laughable compared to established Christian movements. If anyone thinks we are superior because we have Jewish practices and the restoration of Torah, they have the wrong priorities. Love and union with God would have to outweigh observance of holidays, sabbaths, and customs of prayer. When the MJ movement is producing substantial communities that live according to love and experience a deep union with God, then we can talk about catching up to Christian movements who are centuries ahead of us.

As an evangelical, I discovered the Catholic bookstore shortly after Bible college. I was distressed to read literature of greater maturity than we were capable of in the evangelical movement. I had allowed theological differences to blind me to the depth and riches in the Catholic movement (I still find the theological issues insurmountable, but I wish evangelicals would develop the depth of contemplation and love that Catholic spiritual masters have demonstrated).

My main point is this: we are a fledgling movement and far from superior to many other movements in Christendom. We need to repent of any smugness and move on to maturity.

Stuart Dauermann said...

Derek,

A short answer to your excellent contribution. On the Aristotle connection, the first place I heard of it was from Ken Schenck in a booklet on Heremeutics which I quoted in one of our blogs. He teaches New Testament at Indiana Wesleyan University.

Here are more places where he references this connection:

"Unlike today, there was nothing distinctly Christian in Paul’s day in saying that a husband was the head of the wife.  Aristotle says the same things: “The head of the household rules over both wife and children, and rules over both as free members of the household…  His rule over his wife is like that of a statesman over fellow citizens…  The male is naturally fitter to command than the female, except where there is a departure from nature” (Politics, 1.1259a-b). 

In other words, Paul is talking like any old non-Christian when he speaks of male headship.  These comments sound distinctly Christian in our world, but they were not distinctly Christian in Paul’s day.  In other words, it is when Paul moves toward the equality of the sexes in Christ that he is being uniquely Christian.  Galatians 3:28 is uniquely Christian.  1 Corinthians 11:11-12 is more uniquely Christian.  Here is the spiritual trajectory in contrast to the earthly. "

(http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/Women.in.Ministry.schenck.htm) See also the discussion at http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1899

Also -

"There are a few places where we find "household codes" in the NT where the wife is said to be subject to her husband: Colossians 3, Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3. But these, in the end, are irrelevant to the women in ministry question. Why?

. . . The Bible treats these sorts of patriarchal structures as "most of the time" structures. That is to say, the Bible does not treat these roles as absolute structures without exception.

How do we explain the occasional Deborah or Huldah? And why does Paul's mode of operation as found in Acts and his early letters seem to involve women working with him with no specification that they only worked with women or children?

Even Aristotle, whose household codes precede and say similar things to those in Colossians, Ephesians, and so forth, allows that there are women who are a "departure from nature." This, I submit, was the patriarchal view of biblical times. Men are usually the leaders, but there are women who occasionally depart from the norm.

(http://www.feedshow.com/show_items-feed=255e368dd266f0d33af85c0bfdda2063?page=1)

We can both now take the time to see if anyone else besides Schenck draws the Paul-Aristotle connection. I would guess the answer is yes.

·

Robert said...

Robert

Response to Cornelius question 1:

Cornelius said:
“Why is it that whenever I introduce the requirement of Torah or “law observance” or better known as a faith obedience to G-d the Father through Yeshua as contingent [you meant “incumbent”] on every believer whether Jew or Gentile as a submission to His Lordship, that this with Gentile Believers hits a raw nerve.”

I believe Stuart states it well saying that we need boundaries and furthermore boundaries that are maintained. I see this as important to both Jews and Gentiles. I have seen both sides of the Gentile coin, the first is the “anti-Torah” side where I actually get an opportunity to educate and then exhort them as Gentiles to remain in their calling and yet support our covenantal calling to Torah as Jews. Then there is the other “Wantabees” who embrace Jewish life as it is the ultimate and they finally arrived at G-d’s best. If I may, I would like to expound on Stuart’s strong conviction that Gentiles (unless called by the Ruach to the MJ movement) should remain as the precious people that Hashem created them to be and not feel inferior to anyone. Stuart brought to my mind a key word called “identity” when he said, “It is a sobering thing: it involves saying, “I believe God has called me to take on this identity and these obligations for the rest of my life, even to the death.” I personally see weaknesses and inferiorities on all sides of the coin and I root it all to the crises in identity. When we deal with the issue of identity, we deal with the height of philosophical and theological meaning, but also with the most practical issues of an individual’s faith and sense of self worth. I am convinced that all of our identities will always be under attack, be it Jew, MJ, Christian etc. So my guard is never put down in regards to this issue, and I make it a point to empower the leaders in our community to be aware of this identity crises of “inferior Gentile syndrome.” From the One-Law movement to the Ephramite movement, we have a lot of educating to do to those who walk through MJ fellowships who are not called of the Ruach. I see Hashem as very supportive of many families, groups and cultures and I especially see this expressed in Rev. 7:9 where all are distinctive and yet gathered before the throne. This is our “eye-opener,” as a movement to remain in our calling and educate the rest.

corneliusm said...

Stuart and Robert and Derek: I appreciate your comments in response to my questions. I am not in disagreement with you at all and believe these responses typify what is clearly evident. I whole heartedly agree that Gentiles do not have to become Jews and should exemplify what Rav Shaul stated which was to come as you are. If circumcised, obligated to full Torah obedience, if uncircumcised, stay that way with equal status with our Jewish brothers in Yeshua. I understand the pull of Judaica and this is extremely evident with Gentile want to be Jews wearing tallit and superficially trying to become Jews without the full understanding of the gravity of the committment as Stuart has explained. I know from reading Kesher that there has been a lot of dialogue and discussion on these matters of children of Gentile parents in Messianic congregations asking for Bar Mitzvahs etc. I do not subscribe to this unless it is from a deepest revelation and calling as Stuart as pointed out. As a Gentile, unless someone enlightens me that I do truly have Jewish roots and family ties (of which is an unproven but distinct possibility), I do not see the need to pursue becoming a Jew in all that it means to undertake, especially when scripture clearly states that this is not necessary. However, having said that, when I mentioned halakhic standards for Gentiles, I did not mean this in the way of following Jewish traditions and call to Torah observance as is scripturally obligatory for Jewish people (at least, the way I interpret the scriptures), but the central issue is still obedience to the commandments which I believe is obligatory first for the Jew and also for the Gentile. This whole issue I believe is of paramount importance and is always misinterpreted as meaning Judaising for any Gentile who states that we should keep the commandments. I believe that the misunderstanding of what Rav Shaul says has led to not only the Knesset using this as ammunition against Messianic Jews as being anti-Torah and Paul starting a new religion and by the Church stating that we are trying to get back to a works based righteousness which was abolished by Christ. Yet as Paul pointed out in Mathew 5: 17-19 as well as countless times in John, John I, John II and John III we see that obedience to the commandments is showing love and Yeshua states that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill them and that keeping them was of paramount importance. Couldn't the Church somehow just once, say it is very important and incumbent on all believers not as a legalistic thing but as authentication that one actually takes the Lordship of Yeshua and Gods commandments seriously and binding? This does not mean that we Gentiles have to become Jews and it does not mean that Jews have to park their Jewishness at the door and enter the Gentile church in mass assimilation!
On another note, a lot of this is on my mind and heart in the quest for spirituality and answers in the quest for it as well as understanding the roots of the faith. As a Gentile, my whole perception of Judaism is that it was given by God, specifically the call of Abraham. It wasn't just a group of men who somehow got together and decided,"hey, we're going to create this thing called Judaism and make up some kind of constitution and traditions and a cultural motif". My main contention is that God authenticates to the world that He is real and is who He says He is by the presence in the world of a covenant people-Jewish people and the promises He keeps to them. In other words, God has encoded into history the knowledge of Him through His people historicallly and interactively through proofs of prophecies, etc. to the regathering which we are experiencing and the awaiting of end time events. Christian tradition has tended to cast off the richness of the understanding our our roots by its supersessionistic stance, and the rendering of the Torah as being superceded by grace etc. I find a longing to come to a greater understanding and knowledge of the Lord and to somehow come to a deeper grasp or possession of a spiritual life that I have found lacking in the Church. I am not looking to become nor superficially play Jewish but I do recognize that there are a lot of answers in Jewish tradition, teaching and Torah that give a breadth and depth to our faith in Yeshua! It is in this that I find a yearning in my soul, to create a bigger space within me for the Divine Presence, to come to a greater understanding of spirituality from the original or first people of God (the Jewish people who were first given the knowledge and instructions by God), to be a doer not merely a hearer of the word or just academically an automaton devoid of practical application in my life. I find that Judaism, in particular Messianic Judaism, is helping to provide this link that I believe was lost from some of the Patrisitics and Councils when they split off from the Jewish traditions of the early Church. I am learning from all this to have an open mind and repent of any arrogance or anger of reaction especially to my Christian heritage for missing this and to not be so zealous as to think that I am right in my viewpoint to the point that I am trying to sell it at every corner to the point of being obnoxious or have a shift in center as Stuart puts it.

corneliusm said...

Paul, I found it interesting that the B'rit Chadasha was not in existence when this was written in Revelations. I too, have often thought about what you have written regarding the flood and Noah and his family as providing the seed for the nations as well as Israel in that all families on the earth can be traced back to them. Your comments on Torah applicability are interesting wrt Genesis 9:1-9. I know that Israel was called to Sabbath worship, but in Genesis 2:1-3, we see that long before Sinai and Moses giving God's commandments to Israel, that the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and santified it and rested from his works. This whole point of trying to really find out what is the correct day of worship is what led me to what I would call the revelation of the Messianic Jewish movement. I say revelation, because I did not ask for it and whenever I talked to my Gentile Christian friends about it in the past they thought I was nuts! I must agree that Torah observance and following and believing in Yeshua are not mutually exclusive as many believe!

corneliusm said...

Stuart and Robert: Thanks, I will look up the One Law Movement. I am aware of the Ephraimite movement.

JOHN said...

Reply to Paul's question for Monday concerning oral/written Torah + all or piecemeal:

I couldn't help mulling this over in my mind to try to distill this into basic statements.(It worked easier for me that way).
What would be ideal?
1.Consisency in observance.That way Jewish belief could be categorized and easily definable.Torah+community+ritual practices.
2.With this in place the Messianic movement could be seen as clearer "Jewish" (keeping these same basic tenets) but differing over the question of accepting Yeshua as Massiach.
What would our purpose statement be? Is that important?(I think Yes:Yeshua when asked was very clear at times on this question."I have come to save sinners.."
What is our purpose statement? I imagine for the most of us it probably runs like this " To walk with our Jewish people in the daily routines of life revealing the Yeshua WHO IS ALREADY THERE!"
3.The reality is that there are so many different ways of Jewish lifestyle that it would seem to be a misguided goal to try and marry Messianic movement ideals to all facets.We are going to have to choose.Is this a bad thing.I don't think so.There are Jews who are not Shabbat observant,regard chosenness as being some thing outdated and passé(The "choosing" people not the choosen).Can we really hope to accomodate people from this side of the spectrum to those who are quite orthodox in their faith and observances?
4.Kugel states that there is a whole generation"lost" to Judaism through the American insistence on diversity of expression that has finally led to very little commitment or expression."...Ripping the Halakhic commitment out of Judaism has resulted in sterility".
I would imagine that it's a bit like diving for treasure..The deeper that we dive the closer we get to the treasure and see the pearls and diamonds in their splendour and brilliance.However, for some they are content to peer from afar rather than dive close.A murky image is prefered to a closer clarity.If you force people to dive down , to bring these people to a closer observace than they are comfortable with ..they might fight you ,back off and head up for air.
In conclusion on the first part of the question,I feel we probably have to come down to a return to a strictly observant lifestyle,aligning with those Jewish believers who do likewise..
That way our purpose would appear less blurred to the outside world and to us.In fulfillment of Mitzvot,questions about whether we do this with Kavvanah or not would be irrelevant.Mitzvot would be..just what we naturally do to "Blossom the divine presence in the daily things of my life"
Part two:
1.Should oral Torah and Rabbinics,etc form us at all!
Again,there as so many types of schools and interpretations,etc that it would seem impossible to make a blanket statement that we choose to be aligned with the oral continuation as continued by Rabbinic commentary.
1. It's clear to me that the oral tradition is the inspired work of God.How could it be otherwise? If something is good and beautiful and talks of HaShem where can it come from? Although Jewish tradition accepts oral tradition and commentaries as having the same status as the torah..this view will be fiercely contested by some in the Messianic Movement.Again it's a matter of choosing.I believe.We have to come down on the side of observant believers and stretch our commitment to them as far as it takes.This means accepting group(rabbinic) interpretation.Either from centuries ago,or in the present day.
2.What about"Yeshua" and conflicts with New covenant beliefs?
Not important in my view(I add boldly).Our job is to do our job.Not to prove how the Rabbi's have all missed the point and the sum of their literature is as nought in that it is founded in "Yeshua" rejection.If we were debating about this we wouldn't probably stay in the Messianic movement very long..Our job ,as I see it; is to reveal how Rabbinic writings and commentaries and authorities have been revealing and continue to reveal OUR God to His people."It's not important where you are on the road..but that you have started"(Kugel) We are on this same Jewish road.

JOHN said...

in response to Cornelius's question and Stuart's reply:
I'm searching for a reason why gentile believers who are fully imersed in the teachings of Yeshua and are open to the universality of the brit'chadashah would want to trade in their identity as to the people G-d has created them to be,to become something that is at best "playing Jewsish".
1.searching the scritures does show us that Yeshua clearly thought that being" Jewish" was extremely important.(samaritain woman at the well.."salvation comes from the Jews".
2.No one can come to the father except through me..(the Jewish massiach)(troubling phrase for us messianics!!).
3. "I came not to abolish but to fulfill the law" again emphasis on the important Yeshua had of observance in his daily life..
4.the Jerusalem council sought to dimish the requirements of gentile believers as being under the full "yoke" was considered too unrealsitic for them.
5.Peter's vision about unclean and clean foof and his being led to Cornelius's house and this man's susequent ruach Hakodesh experience astounding jewish believers that gentile's could be open to such outpourings.
6.The first 4 statements could easily be used (and maybe have been!) to instill in gentile believers that somehow they have a watered down version of a message that still principally concerns Jews.
Hebrews talking about the branches that have been grafted into the tree,however, doesn't say that afterwards these branches are indistinguishable from the others,but rather mentions caution in overt pride at being in the tree.The true "native" branches are still "native" and the grafted are still "grafted".
7.It's here where things go amiss in my view.Movements stress (Evangelical,Catholic,protestant,etc) what we BECOME as an identity when we join their ranks.What don't we emphasize the fruit that each one will bring forth IN OTHERS rather than out own personnel agendas.
With the branches metaphor we can imagine different fruit ,different blossom.
Along the same lines,Jewish+Christian life has never been a comfortable one.G-d would always seem to take us where we don't want to go.Just look at all the prohets of the bibke and Yeshua himself.If we start settling down in a cozy Jewish identity and that's it..we've missed the whole point.our whole mission.Again ,in accordance with Jewish thinking, we've got to be on the go.Why do I mention this.Because when I hear stories of non-gentile believers wanting bar mitzvah's and to be circumsized and to convert I've got to say.STOP!STOP STOP!I may also be very opinionated,and obstinate but I 'm sure I'm right.G-d came for all men/nations/cultures.Otherwise the Brit Chadashah doesn't make any sense at all.It's the fruit one brings forth (an outside posture) that counts,and G-d has given a destiny and situation for each of us to act in...we don't need someone else's script

Unknown said...

Response to R. Stuart's Response to Cornelius

"What I mean is we ought not to see Messianic Judaism as superior to various forms of Christianity around us. Each of our communities must instead seek to be faithful to our own callings, without disparaging the callings of other wings of God's people."

Paul uses the body analogy; I would like to use a restaurant analogy (having worked in the “service” industry for many, many years). In a restaurant, you have hosts, waiters, busboys, cooks, managers, assistant managers, bookkeepers, etc. Now pretty simply, you will not make good tips as a waiter, if you don’t work with a good cook. Likewise, no one will care how good the food is if they were met by a rude host, and given dirty plates, cups, and silverware to eat with.

My point in all of this is in agreement with R. Stuart. We cannot all be the same things. The one religion of the world idea is from the enemy, and that’s what we are going to be up against in the time before Yeshua returns. And to paraphrase R. Stuart, we need to do our best and be our best in what we are called to do and be. I would like to add to that by saying, not only should we press on ahead to finish the race we are called to, but we should also help the other runners that are near us, so that we can finish the race together. This is not a competition between denominational expressions, rather we are part of the body that is going to see Yeshua take His rightful place on the throne of Jerusalem.

So I would add that we need to look after our own as it were, but also foster relationships with the Church, open up dialogue, get the young people involved together, even spend time at each other’s services, so that there is healthy blood flow between the different parts of the body (now I’ve gone back to the body analogy)

Unknown said...

Response to Paul’s First Comment:

"However, this is not the sum total of our charge. We are also to remain faithful to Yeshua. Sadly, some folks sincerely believe that Torah observance and remaining faithful to Yeshua are mutually exclusive in that doing one necessitates discarding the other. However, the reality is that we are charged with both."

Now I find this really ironic, and have even believed this to a degree myself. “Well since we are under grace we don’t have to keep the laws.” This is saying the same thing that I have heard from Jewish non-believers, that you can’t have Judaism and have Jesus, just in a different way. What the grace over law statement is actually saying is, “Well, if you have Jesus you don’t need to have Judaism.” WOW! Both sides are saying the same thing!

JOHN said...

In reply to Paul's reply and Stuart reply to John's (My)first question:
I'm still intrigued.It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the picture.Paul states the passage from Rev 14:11-12"...this calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Yeshua".
1.I don't feel at all compelled to believe that the reference here is to TORAH.If we read on the next sentence explains how a voice from heaven commands in WRITTEN words:Blessed are the dead who die in the LORD from now on".Clearly a reference to the saving grace and salvation that comes from Yeshua alone.All through the Gospels Yeshua was anxious and at pains to explain that it's the heart that counts.
2.t^The reference to Matthew5:17 is also interesting.Although we see that Yeshua Does endorse the LAW as something worthy ,holy ,he also adds the phrase "until everything is accomplished.Is this not his atonement for sin in his supreme sacrifice.Otherwise the passgae wouldn't make any sense with the rest.And how would we interpret "unless your righteousness suppasses that of the teachers of the law.This must mean that "true righteousness is atained by a means other than just the "Law".
3.What do we make of Rms 2:27 "A man is a Jew if he is one inwardly...circumcision is circumcision of the heart" Maybe it's here that something's amiss.In our understanding if the LAW.What if Yeshua was trying to put forth the idea of law as a newer covenant of love,mercy,of never ending forgiveness.A new wine that people don't want "..because the old wine is better".
In the light of this interpretation of LAW the rest fits:Rms 3 20 "no-one will be called righteous by observing the LAW...only conscious of sin"
4."Boasting...excluded! On what principle..observing the LAW? For we maintain Man is justified by faith apart from observing the LAW"
Rms 3:27.

rebyosh said...

In agreement with Rabbi Stuart's responce, sometimes we have to be commited to that which we know is right. The election of Israel and Covenant Faithfulness may create uneasiness among other believers, but it is a reality and a conviction we must adhere to. Although I would agree with Paul that we must always discuss and present it to other believers with sensitivity.

Another issue with the concept of Chosenness is that it does not map out too well into English. The idea of Choseness is not a concept of better or worse than other peoples, but of a "uniquness" and a particular calling. Israel is G-d's way of demonstrating His covenant faithfulness to everyone. For the idea of chosenness, in my opinion, is like a model or blueprint. It is a demonstration that G-d's redemptive acts work. So in turn, that same message can apply to the rest of humanity. For if G-d is not faithful to Israel, how can the rest of the Nations guarantee that G-d will be faithful to them. However, in seeing the faithfulness of G-d to Israel only buttresses the promises of G-d to the Nations.